Balancing Life’s Pillars for True Success! - Max Chaury

In this episode of The Quest for Success Podcast, we sit down with Max Chaury, co-founder of Upworth, to explore his holistic approach to success and entrepreneurship. Max shares how his multicultural upbringing and the influence of his parents shaped his perspective on balancing key life pillars: health, finance, and social relationships.

Max discusses his journey from consulting to co-founding Upworth, a startup revolutionizing personal finance management. He dives into the challenges of entrepreneurship, offering practical insights on business decision-making, the dual nature of capital, and opportunities in emerging markets. Max also highlights the importance of social responsibility in business and provides actionable advice for young founders on focusing efforts and deeply understanding their industries.

This engaging conversation is packed with wisdom on personal growth, achieving a balanced life, and adopting a growth mindset. Whether you’re an aspiring entrepreneur or seeking inspiration for holistic success, this episode offers invaluable lessons.

Things we discuss:
Max's Company Upworth: https://upworth.com.au/
Connect with Max: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximechaury/

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Transcript

Dylan Pathirana (01:28.645)
All right. Welcome back to the quest for success podcast. And thanks so much for tuning in once again. We are really excited because, we're joined today by, Max Chowry. Max, thanks for joining us.

Max Chaury (01:58.892)
My pleasure, Dylan.

Dylan Pathirana (02:01.676)
so max, this podcast is all about success and we're actually, really, really glad because you're actually, you've been referred to us by one of our previous guests, Tanvir. And that's a very big moment for us because it's always amazing once a guest starts to refer you to other people in their network. And so to begin this conversation, I need to understand something quite fundamental. And that is what does success mean to you?

Max Chaury (02:31.938)
Yeah, no, I mean, that's a great question. And I guess, you know, we could have even the one hour chat on that. But I think that we refine our definition of success as we, you know, as we mature and grow up. And obviously, I think that the most the first degree right of understanding of success is that it cannot be it's such an important, you know, an important term. cannot be only on one criteria. Right. People can can can understand when we speak of success. We cannot just speak of like financial

success or you know career success right it has been to it has to be more encompassing. The way I see it I mean like I always consider like life as several like key pillars right so there is the physical health so are you how successful are you at maintaining a good health the mental health how successful are you at making sure that you're you know also your your mind keeps growing and enriching and that you feel good in your skin in your body and in your life right.

So that's I think a second pillar. Third pillar on which of course we are very passionate at Upworth is financial success as well, personal financial success. And the fourth one is social health, social success, which is obviously means at the first of all like having enriching and nurturing social relationships, whether it's with your family, your friends, and also in your

your work and I think in social I would include the career. mean of course like career can be related both, I career at the end if you look at career is related to the four pillars that I mentioned right because you know maybe hopefully your career will bring you some degree of financial success through your income, through your bonuses, through your maybe shares in companies right and also will bring you you know on the social health side you know great relationship with your business partners, colleagues.

employees, suppliers, you name it. So I think that's important. think for me, what's most important about success is that, and I think that's a pitfall that most people fall in, is to define success in relative terms to others. And then it's never ending, because what is to be successful in relative to others? You will always find people that will make more money than you, that will have a more successful career, or more senior roles in companies.

Dylan Pathirana (04:49.086)
Mm.

Max Chaury (05:01.258)
companies or that will be founders of more successful companies and this kind of thing. And usually actually there are also trade-offs. So you have to, what people also don't see when they keep comparing themselves with others is that if someone is super, super successful at one of the criteria, probably they have been unfortunately a bit less good on others. Maybe if they are focused so much on their career, then their family life might be actually very unsuccessful. And vice versa, I don't know.

But like, so it's for me, success is maintaining a healthy dose of happiness and growth across all these very important pillars of life. And maybe the last one before we, I guess, move on to the next question, but I will add the spiritual one, which is, guess, you know, related to mental health, but like, you know, having a really being really attached and aligned with your, you know, the meaning you want to give to your life. I think that that helps on all aspects.

Dylan Pathirana (06:03.323)
That's awesome Max. So in a way that you're summarizing success, it's a very balanced approach to all these pillars that you mentioned. Is that how you summarize everything together? Like having all these pillars

Max Chaury (06:21.613)
Yeah.

Yeah, at the end, like we are born, right? Our first success is to be born into this world. And then we want to grow, right? We want to develop ourselves to learn, to build bonds with others, to build things, to build, you know, impact through companies, careers or whatever. Right. So it's like this blossoming of the human potential, basically success, I would say the blossoming of human potential across all the different pillars or accept criteria or aspects that I

Dylan Pathirana (06:25.878)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Max Chaury (06:52.846)
mentioned. Yes.

Dylan Pathirana (06:54.904)
So Max, please tell us about you. Like we want to know bit more about Max. So how do you tell someone who's Max?

Max Chaury (07:06.412)
Well, I guess I tell it differently to slightly differently at least depending on the interest and what people are focusing on. look, I mean, what I like to mention is that Maximus in Latin, right, mean the tallest. And even though you cannot see that in our call here, but I'm actually two meters seven or six point nine feet. So the name was chosen well by my parents who were told themselves. But beyond the joke. So yeah, I was born in France in a very multicultural family.

Dylan Pathirana (07:26.774)
Wow.

Max Chaury (07:36.538)
with origins from France but also from Poland, Russia, other parts of Europe. I also have two adopted siblings from Ethiopia since I'm a kid, so also really being in very kind of diverse environment. I was also shaped by the fact that I moved every three years as a kid, so for my first 18 years I lived in six different cities and parts of France with my family, so adapting to different environment, small towns, big towns, different subcultures I guess.

within the country. And so that's really shaped me. And then as I kept growing up, I maintained this curiosity and interest for different cultures, different languages, different environments and people. And I think that has really shaped who I am. And so in my studies, I've been also pretty diverse. I I have my first degree in international affairs and then the MBA in business. I mean, to make it short, was initially, as a kid, I wanted to be a writer and the president of

the European Union. But then, so that's why I went initially into like studying politics and economics and all that. But I realized the type, it was super fascinating, but the type of jobs that you get in the public service, even though service is great, you know, administrations tend to be a bit, you know, slow and that's And so that was a bit of a mismatch for me. So I pretty quickly pivoted towards business where I saw there was a lot more, you

opportunities to grow, to learn and to do things faster and more specifically within business startups, I had the chance to get first experience in a Rocket Internet venture. So Rocket Internet being the major incubator of startups and one of the pioneers in developing startups in emerging countries across Africa, Asia, Latin America and the Middle East. And so I was actually helping the director of the equivalent of Uber Eats in Africa.

in Algeria and I really loved it, like the energy, the growth, the passion. And so I was like, okay, I want to really grow in startups. And so I realized most of the leading players of the Rocket Internet Ventures had background in private equity and strategy consulting. So I decided during my MBA to actually do some missions for a private equity firm and upon graduation, I joined a strategy consulting firm where I was doing

Max Chaury (10:06.139)
I mean, strategy work for public administration as well as private companies in North and Western Africa. So did the five year strategy of the postal operator in Algeria, some commercial due diligence in Ivory Coast or Morocco, worked with insurance companies on a very wide range of subjects. Before I actually came back in my true love, which is the startup ecosystem. And so I was director of two rocket

Internet ventures in Asia, Zen rooms in Malaysia and flash coffee in Indonesia so yeah raised between yeah 20 to 100 million dollars and yeah I was managing people from yeah from 10 to 400 people in flash coffee we had I had 80 persons in the office under my management and the 400 people in our stores before I actually moved to Australia because after like a few years as director

reporting to founders but director of startups. I was like okay this is my turn to go and venture into launching my own company and so that's where I gathered with like some people, my two co-founders Alex and Carlos to launch UpWorth in Sydney in May last year and the rest is history. We developed this personal finance platform starting from Australia on which I'm sure we'll have other opportunities to speak about.

Dylan Pathirana (11:33.102)
Wow. Sounds like you've done almost everything under the sun.

Max Chaury (11:39.52)
Unfortunately not yet, but it's in the works.

Dylan Pathirana (11:41.566)
There's a lot more to do, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I, there's so much to unpack there. Yeah. There's so much unpacked there. So I'd like to go back to your early life because it sounded like so much of who you are has been built on this, this early life. And so I want to know what, did your, your parents do? And also I want to kind of understand a bit more about

Max Chaury (11:47.072)
Life is short.

Dylan Pathirana (12:07.185)
what you think you got from them and also growing up with adopted siblings as well.

Max Chaury (12:14.892)
No, indeed. mean, you're right. I think it really shaped me. yeah, my dad is a nuclear engineer. And so he did all of his career in the French electricity company. And so they had, was getting promoted, getting new jobs. And so we are moving with him. And the interesting part is that he worked in very different types of positions, but, you know, where the nuclear power plants are or where at some point he was managing some regions of France for dams, so hydraulic power as well. So you can have a very big park of

hydraulic dams but you're not necessarily in the big cities because it's where the mountain and the water is so I had the chance thanks to that to go in like relatively big cities in France but also like a very much more like remote areas as well as a kid so I think that gave me the opportunity to really experience very different type of people and type of areas. Yeah my mom is actually initially shares a background in banking and law and she was a banker for the first half of her career but then she

She really wanted to contribute and have an impact, including social impact. So she really did the second half of her career in NGOs. So she was managing some League Against Cancer.

the Red Cross and actually she ended up as the director of the French Association for Adoption, which is one of the subjects that she had at heart and we have at heart. so yeah, and so yeah, part of this journey has been for us to, mean, so we had, my parents had two biological kids, my first sister and I, and then we adopted one brother and a sister from Addis Ababa in Ethiopia when I was nine. And so yeah, they were six and three.

And so yeah, so definitely I think that was really an amazing experience. As a kid, I mean, it was prepared, right? It takes actually a lot of time to like the whole process. mean, for my parents took like around like seven years. So it's much more time than actually considering. You can conceive quite a lot of children. Yeah, because there a lot of regulation, you know, across especially international adoption, right? So you have a lot of paperwork, a lot of tests, know, like psychologists,

Max Chaury (14:31.514)
visiting my parents for a lot of tests, to test everything to make sure that it would be a good environment for the kids. yeah, so before they arrived, we were actually exchanging letters and photos and all that. So it was really prepared psychologically as well for my sister and I. And so yeah, it was really amazing. And yeah, this opportunity to welcome in your family, to people and like really...

that's one of the best experience ever. And I think that it teaches you a lot. And I think also it impacts your values and your openness on others and understanding that, I mean, as I see it, right, family is a social, it's a choice, right, also, and it's a cultural, it's education, it's culture, it's not all about genetics. And so it's funny for me because we many times we see like, this person,

this son or this daughter is like their parents and they kind of attribute that to genetics and I have experienced firsthand that many things that we consider to be genetics are actually, I mean some of it is genetics, like obviously like my hate is genetics from my parents, right, for instance, but like many of the behaviors and cultural or educational aspects actually you can see them as well, like the influence of it upon people that are obviously not genetically related, I think that's quite interesting as well.

Yeah, and so I think it's strengthened also my curiosity as a kid, right? Because on top of the fact that, yeah, in my family, as I said, family of migrants as well. And so, you know, my grandma, for instance, she spoke like Polish, German, French, English, Russian, Italian. So, yeah, because of her life story, right, as a kid and young adult. yeah, so I think it was always, you know, trying to guess when I was

Dylan Pathirana (16:18.783)
Yeah.

Max Chaury (16:27.498)
that my grandparents placed, like in which language she will be speaking or trying to recognize the patterns. So I think she also gave me like the love of languages. so all of this, think when you are in this kind of environment, you want to keep growing and keep learning when you mature and can decide for your life and your professional and personal choices.

Dylan Pathirana (16:52.949)
Yeah. then, so were you, when did you move away from, France?

Max Chaury (17:00.28)
So basically, like, I mean, started my first degree was in Paris, but in Sciences Po, but I had the opportunity to do one year in exchange in the University of Chicago in the US. So I think that was my first, you know, year abroad, full year abroad when I was 19. And yeah, and from there, even though I was based in France, for instance, I actually never worked in France. So every single like, you know, summer or internship

opportunity or that. I always was looking at things abroad so I did like research on indigenous culture in the Peruvian Amazon when I was 19 so left for two months alone in the jungle to do a study on the culture in the Amazon.

write a report because I was getting a grant from a French research program and then yeah I did like internships in Cape Town in South Africa, I did work for NGO in Dominican Republic during the summer after the experience in the US and then obviously like more longer term work experience yeah but that's I guess the rest I mean will element the rest of our conversation.

Dylan Pathirana (18:17.619)
So I'm seeing that there's a lot of natural innate curiosity and just like going and chasing opportunities. When did, when did you start to sort of settle, settle down into the more longer term position?

Max Chaury (18:31.564)
Yeah, look, I mean, think exactly. mean, you know, it's like the famous.

reference to the chicken and the limitations of just projecting in the future what happened in the past, right? Every day the chicken goes out and the people in the farm are giving him to eat and he has a nice walk around and then suddenly one day, right, his head gets chopped off and he's eaten, right? So you cannot project the future from the past. But so, why I say that is that indeed, you know, I mean, it's really

dependent to the structure of your studies and your career, right? And obviously as you age, you try to build more longer term work experience and dwellings as well, right? So obviously when I was in universities, then I was doing internships, so the length of time was limited based on the constraints of the curriculum and this kind of thing. So I did like relatively short internships or consulting experience in

Ivory Coast and Algeria and South Africa as I mentioned Vietnam as well and then but yeah upon like finishing my MBA right then then my experience has been longer even though actually most of the time was around two years but not necessarily for reasons that were in my control right so for instance when I was director of Zen rooms in Malaysia we are growing super fast a very know sophisticated

the tourism market was growing, we're doing like a tech for hospitality, right? So we are working with the one, two, three stars hotel, independent hotels. We are also operating our own Airbnb. We are operating a few hotels and we had the franchise, we had an OTA, like, you know, actually we are the first OTA in the Philippines. So we are growing in Southeast Asia.

Max Chaury (20:29.288)
And then yeah, COVID hit, right? And then suddenly from one day to the next, have all the hotels are closed. They stopped using any of the software that they were using because they are not operating. And so yeah, so there was, mean, this I had to leave because of the context and we closed a lot of operations, a lot of hotels were having RBNB operations. So yeah, so then, you know, had to rebound. And so after two years, director of this startup,

I learned a lot and to be fair, you learn as much in degrowth as I would say than in growth. Learning to scale teams is important, but unfortunately when the circumstances are changing, having to go through the tough decisions and restructuring are also a source of stress, but also learning. Then for Flush Coffee, I was also

Dylan Pathirana (21:05.96)
Mm-hmm.

Max Chaury (21:28.67)
So during in Jakarta for two years, we also really like scaled the business, becoming like reaching out up to like 100 stores across Indonesia, mostly in the big cities of Java, Jakarta, Bandung and Surabaya. And yeah, and so we were actually doing quite well. mean, the company is still around and it's still running. But unfortunately, because of the change of VC, you know, VC market,

in the middle. We actually had twice term sheets for Series B at 100 million signed by the investors from Alibaba and from an investor in the Middle East. twice they pulled out for reasons independent from the business actually because of the Silicon Valley Bank and all these changes that were happening in the ecosystem. And so, yeah, so like, yeah, again, like Indonesia is still around and doing quite well. They still have like more than 70 stores.

Dylan Pathirana (22:13.663)
Wow.

Max Chaury (22:28.922)
But yeah, I decided that, you know, wanted to launch my own business. So that was a decision. obviously because of we had after, you know, a very interesting and crazy growth, we had, we are a bit on a much, much slower mode. And so I was, I think like decisions when it comes to career, right. It's also based on, you know, how much and how far, I mean, for me at least, right. How much do you learn? And so once you see that the opportunities to learn are slowing down, right. Then

Dylan Pathirana (22:53.673)
Mm-hmm.

Max Chaury (22:58.378)
you know, that's also when maybe it's a good moment to do something new and keep up. And so I think the real difference should not be between people that stay a long time in the company or people that stay a shorter time in company. It's in both case, how much do they grow and learn through the years, right? Because if you are, let's say, you know, you're joining at the beginning at Tesla and you can do your entire life at Tesla and still learn so much and grow so much.

with the companies and the opportunities and et cetera, right? But then, yeah, when you are in companies that have different, let's say, life journeys or evolution, then I think, yeah, in this case, you have to change ships once in a while.

Dylan Pathirana (23:43.231)
Yeah. And where did your love of startups come from?

Max Chaury (23:48.248)
Look, I mean, think it's a personality match, right? So a love at first sight. So then, of course, after you have a love at first sight, you try to rationalize a posteriori and try to understand, you know, what we have the ingredients out there. So I think, yeah, as I said, first would be personality match in the sense my personality, I'm pretty impatient, fast paced, know, curious and yeah, and like a love for experiment and, you know, trying things and seeing how it goes and learning from it and

trying again, right? So this is all the elements, the ingredients that you find in startup, right? You can have ideas, you have actually the, you know, relatively quickly and relatively young, you have the support of, know, of investors or, you know, founders like to actually innovate and try new things because like that's how you disrupt and you grow as a newcomer in an industry, right? So you are actually encouraged and support.

to innovate, to have ideas, to implement those ideas and to do it fast. it's, mean, mean, at the kind of biological level, I guess, adrenaline would be one of the terms. But beyond that, I think the intellectual and emotional stimulation that comes with doing that. yeah, and I think as humans, like what we are looking beyond, you know, yeah, obviously remuneration for our efforts, but it's also, you know,

what kind of impact and positive impact you have in the world. And that's true that sometimes, you know, people in like big corporates in very, it's a so segmented and then you get, you create value, but in such a small piece of the entire machine that sometimes you can lose the sense of the meaning of what you do, right? Which is an important factor of motivation. And so when you actually, especially I had the chance, right, to be the founder of director of companies, you can really shape the companies in accordance to your values and the meaning you

want to give. And so I think another reason, right, that startups were really for me is that actually when you grow fast and when you also in a position of leadership in such a structure, you can really shape, I mean, not only the decisions and the company, but also the people. So I think there is for me a huge pleasure. And that's one of the things I love most, right, is to actually identify talents.

Max Chaury (26:18.707)
and build teams and coach and empower and grow people throughout their journey in the company, right? And seeing these people grow, that you help grow within the company and seeing their trajectories and their improvements, it's extremely satisfying and rewarding. And on top of that, helping the success of the company as well. So it's the best of both worlds, I guess.

Dylan Pathirana (26:34.063)
Mm-hmm.

Dylan Pathirana (26:49.097)
So Max, take us through what you currently do, like what exactly the business that you're in.

Max Chaury (26:58.22)
Yes, yes. So currently, so as you can see, always try to have some merch on me. Maybe one day you guys will have the quest for success hat. I recommend hats are amazing. yeah, so Upworth, right? So Upworth is a personal finance startup that we launched with two co-founders, Alex and Carlos last year. We raised actually one million AUD precedes to build the product and launch the company last year. And so essentially what does

up worth do, there are a few ways to see it before I actually get into details at a more general level. It's your personal CFO, right? Or if you want, if you know Xero for companies, the Xero for individuals, or your personal finance passport, right? So the idea is that is this one place, just like you have an Apple watch to monitor your physical health, where the Apple watch for your financial health, right? And so essentially, what are the things that we have

already built because obviously as you can see the vision is pretty ambitious and all encompassing and so you need to be very pragmatic also and you know deliver and make it happen step by step right. So what is there already the first step just like for your you know physical health what do you do maybe you do a general checkup blood test or you put your Apple watch that measure all your key metrics right and so that's what we do the first step for Upworth is that we are a wealth

So we help you to connect all your assets and liabilities in one place. So typically we are a user of the open banking regime in Australia. So you can put on your Upwork profile your bank account, investment accounts, crypto wallets, properties, loans, you name it. Every single asset and liabilities you can put there and the vast majority of them you can actually connect them live such as the banks and then your pension funds like superannuation and all that. So basically you have one place where you have consolidated

everything and also that tracks the evolution throughout time also automatically because that's the problem typically of like having to check on all these different apps and then like going on your Excel and updating the data here and there. So this is the first problem that we solve. Obviously it's a first step because that's only the start of actually providing value for people and you provide value when you also give like know insights or know recommendation or concrete actions that you can take.

Max Chaury (29:27.826)
That's why the second step is to actually, so I mean on top of, before I go in the insights, like so this, if you think about it, right, if up worth is your personal CFO, the assets and liability consolidation would be like a balance sheet, right? And so another important statement is the cash flow statement. And so this is a second value that we have already in our product is that we consolidate your income and expense, your cash flow, sorry, your cash flow statement, your inflow of cash and your

outflow of cash. So what we do is that only in Australia for the moment but using you can connect all your bank accounts right and we will actually automatically categorize using AI all your transactions historical transaction, current transaction and then you know obviously we'll keep adding future transactions and on top of that all categorized by categories and subcategories so typically you know like food and within food you have supermarkets or coffee shops or you know bars and etc.

So we really segment all of your spend so you can have an overview of how do your inflows go. It's literally a cascade of cash and you can actually set targets. So you can say, okay, this is my historical but versus targets, this is what I want to achieve and it will track your performance, historical performance and also you will see your future performance. And so that's the second pillar of the

as it is already now. But we mentioned the third step or the next step is to provide value and insights. And that's where we are already providing some actually helpful insights to people right now. The first one is, mean, always a big question is like, and it's the same physical health, like how am I against certain benchmark? And so for financial products, actually, the benchmark is what are the best products

in the market, right? And so we typically started with two very important products for Australians. First, the saving seconds. Why is it important? Because it is the number one most popular, mean, most well-spread product, right? For that pretty much everyone has a saving second. And the second one is the mortgage because it's the most impactful. Because the number one way people build wealth in this country is through property investment and mortgage, right? So for these two products, we compare your products

Max Chaury (31:57.346)
to the entire market and we tell you how much you're missing out on in terms of interest. So obviously for mortgage, the lowest it is, the better it is for you. And for saving second, the higher it is, the best it is for you. Right. So this is like, you know, this kind of function of personalized market comparison so that you know, you know, what are the opportunities in the market to improve your performance. Right. And actually when it comes to mortgage, we, we also, you know, get our hands dirty by actually helping people

advising and helping people to find the right mortgage, whether it's refinancing of an existing mortgage or taking a new loan as certified mortgage brokers in Australia. And by the way, this decision has been, why did we make this decision? Because we noticed something is that in Australia in the past, there were some personal finance management platforms that reached very high number of users, like one million for pocketbook. But unfortunately, they didn't make money. Why?

because in personal finance and it's pretty common, there is a high willingness to use, but there is a low willingness to pay. So basically you need to do, it's very helpful for people, but they don't want to pay for it. And so you need to monetize otherwise, right? So we decided to have a free platform and to monetize on the financial product intermediation, starting with mortgage and of course other products such as insurance are coming. so, yeah, so that's a bit our approach. And so, yeah, and we have a few other insights.

that are already live and we keep adding more and more insights for people, whether it's comparing to the market, evaluating if they have an idle cash flow, they could be investing at better rates of returns and et cetera. But obviously, one of the limitations where we have to go step by step is that it's a regulatory regulated space, so you need to make sure you're doing what you're entitled to. But the beauty is as mortgage brokers, we are fully entitled to give advice on the loan side of things.

Dylan Pathirana (33:47.927)
Yep.

Max Chaury (33:56.986)
We are not yet, it's a plan at some point, but we are not yet financial advisors or AFSL, so that's why there are certain limitations. But yeah, we are actually going to release soon a partnership with some financial advisors, actually for people who want a more encompassing service that includes the platform, but also touch points with advisors.

Dylan Pathirana (34:20.376)
Yeah, that sounds really exciting. It sounds like there's so many features in there that are like very prominent for like most Australians. But there's one thing that I want to touch on is your transition from like consulting and advising and startups to actually being a founder yourself. How did you find that transition?

Max Chaury (34:42.7)
Yeah, so I mean, as you mentioned, I think that there are several steps in transition, right? There is, yeah, like, so actually I did the different positions, right? So when I was in MBA, so I worked for a private equity fund. So I was seeing from the point of view of like investors, you know, actually acquiring companies, getting board seats, and, you know, all doing transmission capital. And so from the point of view of like, okay, allocating resources to companies and what are the things

that we are looking at. Then after graduation, was in strategy consulting. So yes, more as an advisory. I advise like more, you know, working the kind of strategy muscle in there of trying to see for given companies, what are their strategy and what are they missing out on? And hence, how can they refocus their activities differently to maximize the value they are creating and capturing, right? And so what it teaches you in consulting is really like the toolbox, if you want, right?

a bit like continuation of the MBA in a sense of, what are the tools at your disposal as a business owner, business manager to actually, you know, adjust your business to the environment. Because at the end, I believe like a business is something that really, you know, it's like a ship on the sea, right? So the ship is made to be able to go through and bring people forward on the sea and the business is like the sea would be the market and the business needs to be like sailing.

forward on the market. So it's really about matching the environment and the value proposition that you have, right? That's what innovation is about, is finding gaps, know, and consequently filling those gaps with businesses and solutions. And so, yeah, so the first step was like seeing as an investor, then seeing as an advisor to companies and governments. But at the end is the same thing because it's, I mean, it's like problem solving. What is the problem and how can we help solve the problem better, right? And then so

between funding and consulting, so there was an intermediary step, as you mentioned, which was actually very helpful, which was being an operator, being director of a few scale-ups in some markets, Malaysia and Indonesia in this case. yeah, being an operator brings, I think, a second set of skills that are complementary to consulting. Because consulting, it was strategy consulting, right?

Max Chaury (37:12.314)
So it's relatively high level and it's relatively conceptual, right? It's how do you segment problems, data driven, conceptual, and that's super important of course, but you know, sometimes it's a bit far from the day to day reality of operating a business. And so that's why what I learned as you know, operator of actual companies is the granularity, right? Is going in the detail of the detail of understanding the very

very specific problem at hand and getting your hands dirty that you don't get as much in consulting. I mean that's the tragedy of consulting sometimes is that you're producing a great analysis and recommendation that are just then put in a boardroom and nothing is done about it. So what I liked as being an operator or director of startup is that you actually implement those things in the details and you see how sometimes great strategic

ideas don't necessarily lead to good decisions and good outcomes because when you operate a business you see that the devil is in the details and do you have the right people to do it? Is it the right moment? Is this partner the right partner for the specific problem? So yeah, it's a different kind of muscle that you build but I think it's as fascinating, less theoretical and more practical

Dylan Pathirana (38:24.487)
That's it.

Max Chaury (38:42.214)
about understanding people, whether it's your suppliers, your clients, your employees, the people you recruit, and also going into the details of the problems and really, know, maybe if consulting is zooming out to have the overview and the big picture so that you don't go in the wrong direction, which is obviously super important, but also, I mean, operating a business is like zooming in, is like, how can you also go and drill to the

the most granular level so that you actually understand the real problem and not the perceived problem at a high level so that you can actually solve it properly. as I said, you see it's a lot about specific people, do you the right people or not, and what are the processes and the details, steps of operation that you could improve to make the sailing smoother and faster.

That was basically once you have these two skill sets put together, then that's where maybe, at least for me, that's where I felt more comfortable to actually launch a business. so that was the next step for me. But I guess it's like everyone has their own journey, right? But it's like, when are you actually feeling ready for it? And yeah, it's a heavy responsibility and it's a lot of different things that you should be playing with or working on.

Dylan Pathirana (40:00.414)
Yeah.

Max Chaury (40:11.844)
So you need to be able to have the confidence to be relevant in tackling those problems or minimum level of relevance because of course you always keep learning and it's never over. You cannot start getting asleep or complacent. Things are changing fast.

Dylan Pathirana (40:35.239)
Absolutely. And you've mentioned a few times emerging markets and it seems like a lot of the businesses that you've gone into are in emerging markets. What do you think, what is so special about emerging markets for you?

Max Chaury (40:52.268)
Yeah, mean, personally, I I think, you know, every type of market has its pros and cons. I mean, why I really liked emerging markets is that, again, in terms of what we're speaking about impact, it's probably where you see that you can have massive impact because there are so many more gaps, right? Emerging in a sense, right? It's like there are many gaps and emerging solutions that are and so many emerging solutions simultaneously give you an emerging market, right? So, yeah, it's like bigger.

gaps, bigger impacts. And I think you learn a lot from emerging markets and I think this is under, know, emerging markets are underrated because, you know, obviously you have many people from emerging markets that go and do their studies in more developed countries and then so people in more developed countries are thinking, you know, why should I go there? You already have people from these other markets coming to me. This is because probably, you know, my market is better or something. But actually, I mean, I would

Dylan Pathirana (41:27.263)
opportunities.

Max Chaury (41:51.974)
disagree with that because there are many things, somehow, because of the nature of emerging markets and emerging economies, you have a much more entrepreneurial, I think entrepreneurial mindset is much more developed in many emerging markets than it is in developed markets. Because in developed markets, people are taking things for granted. They have all the social securities and stable jobs and stable employment and they

Dylan Pathirana (42:15.487)
Yep.

Max Chaury (42:21.958)
come from already they already often come from middle class I mean most people are middle class or higher right in I mean yeah I mean I would say like if you compare it if you're like in Australia in Europe like pretty much everyone is middle class I mean almost right whereas if you go from emerging markets like and especially if you look a bit historically right many people are actually coming from places where they were actually you know and significantly and so and so it creates a mindset and problem-solving

that is very very inspiring. I think you have a lot of brilliant people in these markets that are you know like what we call like street smart or you know what I call also like entrepreneurial where it's like it's in their DNA to actually do as much as they can with as little as they can because they don't I mean they have little and I think when it comes to startup it's the best possible skill you want to have in your team because you you have by definition limited resources and you need to achieve a lot and so you know

sometimes in like more developed markets you have people that that come in startup because you know it's cool and it's like well perceived but they come from like you know a bit of a situation of privilege and so they are actually it's very hard for them some actually do succeed but it's very hard for them to adjust because they always they think that you know you know if you need to solve a small thing you need to outsource and you know call 10 specialized companies to solve the problem and and everything needs to be you perfect

Otherwise, it's not like a good environment or it's not professional enough or this kind of thing. But the truth is, I mean, at the end, like company is a solution to like, you need to solve a lot of problems as fast as possible using as few resources as possible, right? So having the right people for a startup is precisely having a lot of these people. And I think you find them quite naturally in much more naturally in some emerging markets.

Dylan Pathirana (43:54.019)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Max Chaury (44:22.334)
I don't know what would be the Sri Lankan version of that but in India for instance, jugad, What are the objects there and I can make whatever a car or plane from it even though it doesn't look like it the first glance.

Dylan Pathirana (44:25.997)
Yeah, yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (44:30.452)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (44:37.891)
Yeah, totally what you're saying Max, because we had quite a journey. Like we went through to Istanbul, to Colombo, you know, that struggle, people like, you know, going through that struggle, that desperation kind of create that real entrepreneurial thinking. So these guys trying every opportunity to create business. And that's really exciting to see that, you know, it's a

As you exactly said, a mindset of a developed country and a mindset of people in a developing country is totally different, right? And it's exciting to see that as well. But I have a question. Do you also as a do you feel like a social responsibility that you need to kind of work with these developing countries to engage and support them? Do you feel that way?

Max Chaury (45:38.828)
Yeah, look, mean, it's an interesting question. mean, you know, I don't want to like, you know, overdo it in the sense that I mean, at the end, I'm also, you know, a businessman, and I was also trying to, you know, I mean, as a businessman to better my own lot. And let's be very clear about that, that, you know, doing business is also as also to is also something that to a certain extent is egoistic. you know, there is, you know, people are also looking for advantage for themselves. Let's face it. But but that said, I think and that's part of

what I was mentioning about the satisfaction, the personal satisfaction and the reward that you get. mean, definitely when you have the chance to create employment, create jobs and give opportunities to people from tough backgrounds and giving them opportunities that people in their family or in the background didn't have before. It's a very powerful feeling and yeah, when it comes

to what's the meaning of your life and what positive impact you have upon the world. I would not lie, I was more humbled and more...

it touched me more to help people get out of poverty and getting them promoted and getting them growing the organization because they had the right mindset, work ethics and all that. It warms your heart more than maybe someone that has already coming from a background of privilege. Probably the impact you have on their life is probably basically very limited. So in terms of bringing positive impact to more people and to people for whom the impact is bigger,

I would say yes, it is personal satisfaction and you feel and you see the meaning maybe more easily and more directly. On the downside, to be honest,

Dylan Pathirana (47:28.772)
rewarding.

Max Chaury (47:38.328)
On the downside, when you have to make tough decisions, it's also tougher, right? So, you know, as I was mentioning during COVID when we had to reduce our operations as well. So it also made it more difficult because, you know, that's what you are dealing with people that are really relying on their paycheck for, you know, to live and help their families. So, yeah, that's also that can also be a

fur as well.

Max Chaury (48:24.77)
I can't.

Dylan Pathirana (48:27.979)
Sorry, something happened. Yeah, that's all right. I think we just lost connection for a little bit there, but... Let's continue again. Edit, right? Yeah. frozen again.

Max Chaury (48:29.868)
Yeah. Can you hear me?

Max Chaury (48:43.958)
I cannot hear at this point.

Max Chaury (49:00.448)
Okay, okay, yeah, it's back. I think and I guess yeah, you guys can cut the parts

Dylan Pathirana (49:01.963)
What happened to that?

Dylan Pathirana (49:06.399)
So I've just switched it to load data mode, which means, I don't know if you'll be able to see us, but we're still here. Yeah, okay. Did you finish off what you were saying in that last little section? Cause we can edit out the pause if you did.

Max Chaury (49:13.868)
I do, I do.

Max Chaury (49:23.746)
Yeah, yeah, I did, I did, yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (49:27.435)
Yeah. so I also, I also want to get your opinion because I know you've been on the investment side and the founder side. What impact do you think capital has on a business? Because especially being able to see these developing countries and advanced nations, like you must see there's such a difference in how capital is allocated and the impact that it has on these businesses.

Max Chaury (49:55.906)
Yeah, no, I think that's a very fundamental subject if you think about it because, mean, we are all operating in a capitalist system, right? So the allocation, the right allocation of capital and the right impact capital can have is really structuring. Look, I mean, I think, I mean, obviously it has impact.

In this case, mean, would say they are not necessarily they are not decided differences of nature between allocation of capital in like advanced economies versus emerging economies. I think the dynamics at play are relatively similar. What is what I I saw firsthand and what is quite fascinating is that, I mean, capital is both a blessing and a curse. And, you know, everyone needs to be and every founder needs to be super aware of that. Right. Because the more it's like valuation, right. Like the more capital

all your raise and the highest evaluation. I mean obviously it's nice because you have more resource to allocate and also because yeah you you dilute less as a founder. But on the downside it means that the assumption that has been made is that you will be it's a higher you know pressure as well higher pressure to succeed and and also in a shorter time frame that you may or may not be able to actually succeed meaning if maybe if you had raised a bit less money at a bit lower

valuation, you would have actually been able to make it and you won't because you are too successful in the sense of in raising capital. Right. So it goes both ways. Right. Because you need to have that's why mean, building businesses is not like a short term transaction. Right. It's a long term journey. And so a short term benefit is not necessarily a medium term one or a long term one. Right. So I think as a founder, like you need to be raising each time the

minimum amount of capital that you need for what you said to do at the valuation that will allow you to

Max Chaury (51:53.836)
continue building the business over the next few years and the next few raises if they are. And to be honest, it's one of the hardest questions that can be asked, right? Because it's very hard as an early stage startup or founder to know what are, how are you going to do over the next three to six months. But how you're gonna do over the next five years, it's basically an impossible mission, right?

So which means you

In practice you have to decide like with a huge amount of uncertainty and so obviously people that's why people rely a bit on like your market averages and trying to use like financial ratios or metrics to compare your specific company to the the overall batch of businesses that are let's say raising capital from VCs and compare to the metrics and see if you're pretty much you know in the right spot but again this has also huge limitations right because your

basically assuming that you will be performing average versus the set of peers that you've decided to choose. And by definition, no company is average, right? You can be skewed towards a direction or another. And to be fair, it's actually not only a question of talent or abilities of founders. It's a lot of question of the evolution of the market in the specific industry that you are in.

in the specific product that you're selling. So yeah, it's really hard to make the right decision. So I guess in this case is how your decision is not as bad. mean, it's good enough so that you survive and you grow and you can get to the next steps, which is already quite happening for maybe 5 % of businesses out there.

Max Chaury (53:56.378)
So yeah, I that's also why, right? That we are looking at this rate of failure, actually. So yeah, it's a very complicated space. But and so, yeah, what I was saying in terms of like capital, yeah, what I've seen is that when you raise too much capital, as some companies were during the peaks of like 2001, right post COVID, you start to develop, you know,

you lose a bit this jugad or this early stage startup mindset that is needed at the end if you want to succeed as a startup when you're coming against very, I mean, very against entrenched industries or spaces in which you are the most recent entrant. And so, it's...

it's a fine line between on both sides of the, if you wish, you know, raising capital and allocating capital is like you're walking on a rope in the middle of the precipice. And if you have too much, you lose balance on one side. And if you have not enough, you lose balance on the other side. But in both cases, you fall off pretty steeply.

Dylan Pathirana (55:10.576)
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I want to get some advice from you being a young founder myself. What do you think is one of the most important things that I can be spending my time like learning?

Max Chaury (55:27.234)
Yeah, so I I always love this discussion and humbly trying to give advice, but yeah, think the first point here is that...

you are the best person versus anyone else to know where you should be allocating your time and what you should be focusing. I guess basically it's really dependent on your idea and your project. And I think the first thing is becoming really an expert on the subject that you want to be working on. And I think that's also something that the reason why many people fail is that not necessarily that they actually because many people have a decent business sense.

So they identify that there is an opportunity somewhere, right? But the question is also, are you the best person to solve this opportunity? Right? And do you have the deep understanding of the problem that you're trying to solve? Coming, don't get me wrong, coming outside of an industry can actually be a blessing because you understand problems. You have a different point of view that can enable you to see an opportunity that the people who are already in the industry don't Right? But however, you need to quickly catch up.

on because you have seen the opportunity which is great and you have the mindset to solve it which is even better but now you need to catch up versus the people that are you know the experts in there to also on top of that understand what they understand so you can that's the bring the two together that that makes a successful business and solution so I would say yeah you I mean I think

some people and that's related to what we discussed about the general and the particular.

Max Chaury (57:07.456)
Having a vision as an entrepreneur is very important. Having a big picture and understanding of the different aspects of business equation is super important. And that's usually this part that will help you identify opportunities to launch a business. However, the actual survival will be related to you understanding the much more granular detailed aspects of the industry in which you're trying to solve a problem and the mechanics of resolving

this problem. So I would say considering most entrepreneurs, mean including myself, we love ideas and we love to see the big picture, see the missing the gaps in the market, but we need to also have the, there is no in a sense like substitute rate for the hard work of understanding the details as well. And mean at Tupor for instance that's what we did, we are not coming from a finance background or a mortgage broker background, so we decided to also

be the solution that help people with that. So we had to go through the process ourselves of learning as much as we can on this, becoming ourselves the certified mortgage brokers in Australia, doing the certifications, becoming one of them as well. So we can actually solving the problem from a business perspective, but also from a tech perspective. And some people, they try to solve a problem with tech. I don't know if you're thinking about launching a tech business, but there is a tech layer, but there is also the business

layer and if you don't understand the details of what you're trying to solve, probably your solution will actually not be a solution because solving a problem that doesn't exist, right? So yeah, would say the first advice would be to really go in the details of the problem you're wanting to solve and going in the details is not only like, know, I mean obviously doing research and reading things online and...

but it's also actually interacting with real people, right? Like real people in the industry and especially the people that you want to solve a problem for.

Max Chaury (59:09.4)
because that's the key and they will be the people that you will be working with or signing as clients. So I think a mistake some people make is like, I have such a brilliant idea. I should share it with no one. I will put stealth mode and then I will only reveal it in two years when my product is already the best in the market. That's the worst possible thing to do. Except if you're doing something that is a very, very technical AI thing where you have 10,000 IPs to put before

Dylan Pathirana (59:23.34)
Yep.

Max Chaury (59:39.306)
you actually launch. Otherwise, please today even, you you go and you speak to one of your future clients and you're gonna learn more from speaking with these people than, you know, than from, you know, building your ivory towers in your brain, right? So I think, that would be really go into details and interact with your future clients because without them you're nothing and with them you can be everything.

Dylan Pathirana (01:00:02.741)
Yeah. Great advice for Dylan. Yeah. I appreciate that. And you also spoke about, you know, success being about pillars and you know, we've touched on a lot of like the business and the financial, but I also want to understand how you kind of find the balance with the body and the social pillars that you mentioned as well.

Max Chaury (01:00:25.932)
Yeah, body, mental and social, but because at the end I think...

If you ask me, my position, right? I'm not sure like social, physical, mental, financial, right? But out of these four, I think that the one that is driving all of the four, even though there are interactions between all of them, right? Is actually the mental health. I will say, mental health, of course, is beyond just like, being fine, but it's really growing your mental muscles, your self-discipline, your knowledge, your habits, right? So I'm very, I think that's

the core if you want, the core of all the pillars in my opinion because

everything you do, even including the physical one, right? It's actually a result of, you know, your brain decision making process and your capacity to actually enforce in yourself the decision you're making, which is self-discipline, right? So I think it all starts from there. It all starts from being able, having the, you know, having the knowledge and wisdom from accumulated experience, accumulated readings, accumulated interaction with people, etc.

so that you build a system to function that is performing and in terms of making the decisions and then implementing, but that's only the first part. Then implementing these decisions in actual behaviors and habits, right?

Max Chaury (01:01:59.274)
having the right ideas and implementing them into habits and behaviors. These are the two pillars, right? Because if you have the great ideas, but you don't have the discipline to implement them, it's worthless. And if you are like a super determined and you have a an iron discipline, but you have no idea of what you want and what you want to build and do, then it's also useless, right? So it's these two. And so...

this takes time and but once you've actually built this efficient decision making machine and implementation machine then you actually have able to

put it into practice in different parts of your life, right? Both in personal, professional, social, everything, right? So I would say it's all about habit. And many people say that, you know, I'm busy. I don't have time for this and for that. But usually it's actually because we are not good enough at organizing our times properly and intelligently, because when we do, then, you know, we have actually much more time than what we think we have. Right. Obviously, if you spend two hours,

rolling between 9 and 11 pm every day, that's two hours per day that could be spent socializing, reading books, whatever you actually need and want to do. So I think most people don't put enough effort in actually learning the theory and implementing how do you build your, how do you make good decisions? What are the biases, for instance, that we are subject to as humans?

you know, the systems that we can put into place to take the control of ourselves, right? Like a certain degree of understanding of the world and of ourselves and discipline to do that. like all of these kind of sciences that are there that explain the world, right? Like whether it's economics and, you know, business and history, sociology, all these things, right? You can learn from them. Philosophy, obviously, right? And also like, you know, mean, personal development, right? And how do you understand yourself better?

Max Chaury (01:04:06.458)
whether it's your psychology, the way we function, the way the human body and the human brain function, so that you can make the most out of it and implement the habits. Because we all know how do you become successful at something? By actually setting up the right habits. You cannot be successful at anything quickly. You need to actually regularly, every day, get slightly better at it and it compounds. It's like the interest rate compounding.

I mean, yeah, I mean, let's say 5 % or even 8 % with the SMP 500 per year. It's not that crazy. mean, from one date or one period to the next is from 100 to 108. It's not crazy. But if you actually apply it over a time period that is long enough, then it's exponential, right?

So yeah, I think that's a big learning, like invest in yourself, invest in understanding the world and understanding yourself. And when you reach a decent level on both, that's where you're actually able to take control of your life. And so you ask about socialization and social aspects, which is an important one. I mean...

And when you do learn about yourself and about the world, you understand that, for instance, right, the number one, if we were to find only one factor of happiness, like the single most important factor for happiness for any human on earth is satisfying social relation point.

So the single most important factor for us to be happy is to feel connected and to build great connection with people around us, whether it's our family, our friends, our business partners. And personally, I think that...

Max Chaury (01:05:56.394)
it should start at the relation level of like building great relation with others. And I will not limit it to one category or another. You build a relation with someone and you actually, you you are authentic, genuine with them and you actually provide value to them and you learn from them. And so this positive dynamic of building a bond and relationship, then it can be, you know, beneficial for both members in many ways, right? They can become business partners, they can become clients, they can be bringing you a business from

other people, can be your friends with whom you have good times traveling or meeting for dinners, or they can be advisors, they can be introducing you to people that become your friends or become your spooz.

Max Chaury (01:06:45.078)
You can be the then the whatever the godfather or the kids, you know, like, so I think it's at the elemental level is really focusing on building great relationship with others and not. I think too many people categorize relationship or this would be, you know, only business and this will be only personal and this will be. And I think this is also one of the things that I think is going a bit wrong with, sometimes like developed countries. And I think emerging countries understand that much better that

they focus on building relationship and maybe because they love some developed countries like US, maybe sometimes Australia, it's much more like transactional. It's like, give me something now. If I don't get something from you now, then you're...

and buy and I got your money and I run. I think this is really a misunderstanding of human nature and also a misunderstanding of the value that you can get out of relationship. If you look at the US for instance, it's insane if look at the number. One person out of three said that they don't have any friends. It's like, how can...

the unique focus on money or business or being fully transactional with people lead to this outcome where people have like you know among the best economy in the world and the highest level of net worth but in the same time then you have one third of the population that tell that they don't even have a friend so you know that's all about the balance as I was saying right so if you put all the you know if success is only about you know money and

then you're basically ruining your life without even realizing it. yeah, that's what guess learning and wisdom is for.

Dylan Pathirana (01:08:30.399)
Absolutely. And I think that's a very powerful point that we'll, we'll end on there is there's so much wisdom was just shared in that last like few minutes there. But throughout our conversation, I've been jotting down a few things, which I think are the ingredients that have led, partially to your, successful life. but before I do, need to ask you, do you feel successful?

Max Chaury (01:08:57.612)
Yeah, mean, like, I think.

you know, there is a, it's a spectrum, right? So I'm definitely successful enough for me to feel confident and happy about my life so far. And yeah, to feel grateful for all the great experiences, learning that I had that I was able to also like build my, you know, some degree of like financial independence to build a career that I judge was really insightful. And that was growing every time, growing and

and moving forward. So from this perspective, I would say, yeah, I'm satisfied. But of course, I'm also fully confident. I really believe that.

You need to find happiness in life. you also should never, openness is an objective, right? It's an orison that you want to move forward, but that you want to never fully achieve. And the good news is that we'll never fully achieve it anyway. So it's aligned. But always keep a certain healthy dose of satisfaction, of wanting to do more, to achieve more, to build more, to have more.

impact and build more successful and enriching relationships. So yeah, I think it's all about finding the balance of being satisfied but still wanting to keep growing. And I think the moment where you stop totally to grow and blossom is when you die, I guess. So yeah, still some fun time ahead.

Dylan Pathirana (01:10:38.551)
Yeah, always, always more work to be done. so going back to the ingredients, which I think have led to your successful life from, from my opinion is number one is your growth mindset. I think growth was one of the key words that we heard throughout this conversation is you're always trying to absorb new information. You're always trying to be better in all aspects of your life. You're constantly trying to.

grow yourself. I think you said it in that last little bit there, you're trying to improve and be percentage better every day because it leads to that compounding. And I think that growth mindset is definitely a core part of why you've gotten to where you are today. And then the second one I think is your curiosity. I think we could have unpacked so much more about your journey, but from the sounds of things, even from a very young age, you're inherently curious.

And that led you down different pathways. And even now you're always curious about whether it's a business opportunity or something that you want to learn. It's this innate curiosity that drives you to try and, suppose it drives you towards that growth mindset. You're always trying to learn more. And I think as part of that is you're very open-minded. It would have been quite easy to stick with, you know, one singular market or

one singular opportunity, but you were very open-minded, even from an early age of different cultures and always wanting to go and explore and see new places. And I think that's something which has maybe led you to some of those opportunities as well as being open-minded and thinking, you know, I don't have to be fixed in investing right now. I don't have to be fixed as an operator, you know, and that's led to all of these different incredible journeys.

which has led you to where you are today. So Max, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been very insightful and I'm sure our listeners will have got something from it. So you really appreciate the time sitting down with us.

Max Chaury (01:12:48.928)
I hope so, thanks a lot for having me, it was a great chat and looking forward to listen to your next episodes as well. You're already above 30 so it's a big milestone, congrats!

Dylan Pathirana (01:13:02.153)
Thank you Max. Going through that thing, I didn't even realize that we went past an hour and I think there's so much things that we could have discussed in this journey. Maybe another time. We want to unpack this so much stuff that you've done throughout your shorter journey, I guess. Thank you. again for joining us, Max.

Max Chaury (01:13:31.564)
My pleasure.

Dylan Pathirana (01:13:34.183)
And for those who have joined us, it would be incredible if you could subscribe to us, our YouTube channel, The Quest for Success podcast. And if you want to watch any of our previous episodes, head over to our website, thequestforsuccesspodcast.com, where you can find all of our episodes and clips. And with that, we'll see you guys in the next episode. Thanks for listening. Thank you.