Meet The Woman REVOLUTIONISING Trade In Africa - Uju Ojinnaka

In this episode of The Quest for Success Podcast, Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka, founder and CEO of Traders of Africa, shares her inspiring journey from growing up in a large Nigerian family to becoming a successful entrepreneur. She opens up about the challenges of transitioning from the corporate world to entrepreneurship, the importance of family, resilience, and visibility in trade, and the lessons she’s learned from building a Pan-African marketplace.

Uju discusses the trust barriers in African trade, the role of logistics in business growth, and key takeaways from Alibaba’s model that helped shape her company. She also emphasises the power of showing up, innovation, and setting a clear vision for success.

If you're an entrepreneur, business leader, or simply looking for motivation to take your vision to the next level, this episode is for you!

Listen now and learn how to navigate challenges, think big, and turn ideas into reality.

Connect with Uju:
🔹 LinkedIn: https://ng.linkedin.com/in/uju-uzo-ojinnaka-46288041
🔹 Traders of Africa: https://www.tradersofafrica.com/

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Transcript

Dylan Pathirana (01:36.519)
Welcome back to the quest for success podcast. And thanks so much for tuning in once again today. Jam and I are incredibly excited because we have our first guests from Africa today on the show. have Uju Uzu Ojanaka, who is the founder and CEO of traders of Africa, which is essentially like Alibaba except for Africa. And so we're really looking forward to kind of diving into a story and understanding. So I met Uju at the Harvard business school and

very excited to have you Ju and wanted to explore understand your background understand your story and thank you for having us thank you for being part of this

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (02:16.206)
It's a pleasure. I see I'm quite privileged to be here, you know, being with you on this show. Thank you for having me.

Dylan Pathirana (02:26.31)
So Uju, this podcast is the quest for success, right? And so for us to begin, we really need to understand something quite fundamental. And that is, what does success mean to you?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (02:40.11)
For me, really, I think I will see myself as successful if I'm able to marry properly. I'm a mother, okay? I'm a wife, a mother, and then the founder, CEO of Traders of Africa. So for me, success will be for me to be able to align all of these responsibilities that I have in each of these roles that I play, ability to put them together.

and hold them together. For me, that's something.

Dylan Pathirana (03:13.478)
And when you say hold them together, do you just mean like have that kind of balance across all kind of three of those things that you're juggling?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (03:20.6)
Yes, mean, continuously be an awesome wife, even if I say so myself, you know, and an amazing mother, being there when any of my kids needs me, doing what I have to do to instill discipline, morals, and be there for my kids in every phase of their life. And at the same time, slay in the bedroom, you know, raise to do whatever I need to do in Tofa, you know. So for me, ability to do all of these things, you know.

Dylan Pathirana (03:25.714)
You

Dylan Pathirana (03:42.332)
Yep.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (03:49.548)
with God at the center of course is success.

Dylan Pathirana (03:52.051)
That's really awesome Uju. Before we talk about your business success and all your family etc. We want to take you back to your young Uju. If you don't mind, share with us your story. How did you start? Where did you grow up? Your family etc. Please.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (04:16.622)
Okay, so I am the last in a family of 11. Yes.

Dylan Pathirana (04:22.201)
Wow.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (04:25.986)
You know, so we lived in the eastern part of Nigeria. You know, I'm an Igbo lady. You Nigeria, the various tribes, you know, I'm from the east and that's where I grew up. And I must say that as I grow, I realize the impact my family and my upbringing has had on me because from a young age, I was part of the conversation.

I had a seat at the table. So we had this tradition growing up that we eat together. We eat dinner together. Whatever you're doing, wherever you are, so long as you're in that my parents city, you must come home to eat dinner. And then after dinner, you can go back out and do whatever you're doing. But we all eat dinner, you know? And it is after dinner that conversations are hard. So if somebody is not doing so well,

If any of my elder ones had issues in marriage, in business or anything, it was typically brought in after the dinner. Maybe my parents would raise it all, people would contribute and all of that thing. So that's the way my home has been. So I grew up listening to those things. I wasn't shielded from them.

You know, and sometimes for the ones that concerns me, my dad would usually talk as a, you, do you think? So you can imagine a young lady, a young girl being asked to contribute to adult conversations, you know, you know, and I also remember when I was about to enter college, I had admissions in several schools and my dad, you know, happy that we had those admissions turned to me to say, would you?

Which school do you want to go to? And it's significant because my dad asking you that question doesn't mean that he say, okay, I want A. It comes, I've learned over the years that when you ask those questions, it comes with Y. So he's taking for granted, I wanted this school because, so you give your reasons. And most times if your reason is genuine, he toss and says, thank you. What she says is what we are doing.

Dylan Pathirana (06:48.018)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (06:48.088)
So I had confidence growing up, you know, so nothing fazes me. I'm not afraid of anything. That's true. In fact, these days, my fearlessness scares me. Scares me that I find it difficult to speak about it to even people because I feel that they won't understand where I'm coming from, but I'm not scared. could go to any office, deliver my lines. I'm not even scared whether you're the president of the world, you know, as small as I am.

Dylan Pathirana (06:55.216)
Hahaha

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (07:17.814)
and whoever, can be with billionaires, people who I probably am not able to open their office doors, and it's okay, and I'm having fun there. mean, jam, my class, our class, you know what the class was like. So that's who I was growing up, and I think that is the foundation for who I am today.

Dylan Pathirana (07:41.799)
And what was the age gap between you and the oldest of your siblings?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (07:48.226)
My older sibling is about almost 25 years older than I am.

Dylan Pathirana (07:58.431)
Wow. Right. So those conversations, yeah, you really got exposed to a lot of, a lot of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I guess, you know, like that, you're, you're talking about that, like, you know, having that different conversation, having that exposure to, adult conversation, teenage conversation as a youngest person in the family, you're pretty fearless, right? Like you can.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (08:05.548)
Yes, yes.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (08:26.382)
Yes, of course. Of course, that's what happened. Go ahead.

Dylan Pathirana (08:28.645)
Yeah.

And what did your parents do?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (08:37.122)
My parents were traders. They were trading more in commodities. So my dad was a distributor with Unilever. Used to be Unilever Brothers at that time. In fact, I was told that my name, Uju, was given by the regional manager of Unilever at that time, who came to the hospital where my mom gave birth to me. So my dad.

Dylan Pathirana (08:39.706)
All right, what kind of trading?

Dylan Pathirana (08:50.993)
Alright.

Dylan Pathirana (09:05.979)
Wow.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (09:06.764)
was actually the number one distributor they had in the South East at that time. So of course, you have to be very close to your distributors, right? So I think when they gave birth to me, he came to the hospital and he said, well, this one is Uju and he's stuck. And that's what gave me, Yes. Yes. It means, so my name, my full name is Obian Uju.

Dylan Pathirana (09:24.882)
Is there a real meaning in your language?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (09:35.534)
It can also be someone who born in the midst of wealth or someone born in the midst of children. And both of them works for me really because I mean being the last family of 11, I'm the ninth child in that family.

Dylan Pathirana (09:56.755)
So Uju, having a big family, you had any influence from any of your brothers and sisters? And did they try to teach you or you learned from them over the years?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (09:58.157)
you

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (10:10.658)
both. mean, growing up, I learned. I saw my sisters and my brothers get into trouble that I learned not to be. Because I mean, was discussed there, right? You heard what everybody was doing, what was making their parents happy or not, the punishments that were admitted. So you try not to be in those things. But as a child, as a human being, sometimes you create your own problems, right?

Dylan Pathirana (10:22.45)
You

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (10:39.616)
And so it also means that I had four men and four women who were looking down on me. By looking down, I mean they're looking at you, interested in your case. So because I have four sisters and four brothers, all living, all right? So it means that nobody wants you to make mistakes. Everybody is forever checking up on you. I am that child, while I was in campus in University of Lagos here.

Dylan Pathirana (10:58.576)
Nice.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (11:09.26)
And the person that my brothers on their way traveling abroad maybe for their business would stop by school to just check up on me before going to work. And then come with the airport taxi straight to the school to check on me before. In fact, on the day it dawned on me was, so there was this thing, you know these things that students do when you're leaving your room, you put something to say, okay, I'm in the library, I'm here. We usually had that in school.

And so I'll put it and say, Uju is at the library. So you point library. And I went to the, and really I was at the library, thank God, because I don't know what would have happened if I said I was at the library and I was elsewhere. Anyway, so I was in the library studying and suddenly my name was being announced in the public address system.

Dylan Pathirana (11:45.306)
You

Dylan Pathirana (11:57.66)
You

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (11:58.926)
I didn't even believe it because the library is usually very quiet. So you can imagine hearing your name out of the... So I was like, what's happening? So I ran out, you know, and I went to the reception and I said, go outside. went outside and there was my brother. didn't know what he called me. said, thank you for being where you said you will be.

Dylan Pathirana (12:02.842)
Yep. Yep.

Dylan Pathirana (12:15.268)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (12:20.922)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (12:22.734)
So he was coming back from the airport, went to my room, saw that, came to the library to actually make sure that I'm there. And he can imagine what would have happened if I didn't come out and he went home. He was going to report me big time.

Dylan Pathirana (12:34.002)
So did you find them like nice to see your brothers and sisters taking care of you or kind of annoying?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (12:44.61)
Both. Yes, both. And because I'm also the last, I'm the one that they send on the most errands, you know. So when we are together, even till today, when we are together, I'm the one that does the arrangements, food, taking care of these, making phone calls. I'm the family secretary.

Dylan Pathirana (12:45.648)
You

Dylan Pathirana (12:53.458)
again.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (13:06.956)
You know, so I'm like the integrator there. You have to look after every other person. And really, I realized that the older we get, the more childish we are. So we have to call people to order to say, no, don't do this. This isn't right. Stop. And I'm the last, right? And you have to be careful the way you say those things so that they don't come out as if you're not being respectful. It's a whole lot, but I enjoy it. I actually do enjoy it.

Dylan Pathirana (13:33.67)
Yeah. So it's clear. It's clear that family is obviously a big part of your life, but you mentioned that university. What did you study?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (13:41.314)
I saw this sociology and anthropology, yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (13:44.85)
nice. And then after that, you, you went into the banking sector, right?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (13:50.134)
Yes, yes, I went into the banking sector. I didn't want to do banking, you know. So when I finished, I actually wanted to work in international relations like diplomats. I don't know, I had this, you know, kind of dream. I wanted to work in the, in an international organization like the UN, you know, I was already seeing myself and

Dylan Pathirana (13:55.278)
Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (14:17.422)
for all that, but I didn't get in. I tried actually, but I was told I had to go do my masters. At that time, the information wasn't as open as it is today. And so when I was ranking what I wanted to do, I wanted to do that. The last thing, the third thing I wanted to do was banking. So I didn't get the first two, so I got banking.

Dylan Pathirana (14:37.81)
Yeah so out of eight siblings that you had, you have like, did you look up to anyone like you know I want to be like her or him? No? You want to be you?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (14:51.598)
I want to be me that's what my dad wants once it was intentional he keeps saying I like so There was something my dad does that I still inculcate even in my case to today I think he had a favorite I think he likes my first brother and my first sister more I don't know whether it's more just but I think he does that but as I think he doesn't compare

Dylan Pathirana (15:15.559)
Yep.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (15:21.038)
Whenever I'm around him and towards, you because I'm the last, I get to stay with them the longer. So you hear him talk about each one of us and our vices and our virtues, you know, without any wanting one person to be very perfect. He understood that this is your sister. know that she doesn't like, he will tell you, you know this is your sister doesn't like cooking. Okay.

Dylan Pathirana (15:46.194)
Mm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (15:47.47)
Well, you know this one doesn't want this or no talk to this person He's the person that will do this for you, you know, so he understood each one of his kids Knew our weaknesses and strengths and will sit down and watch you and maybe we were missing him too You know, so he will watch you play out and he already knows where you're going. Anyway, he was a good man. He was

Dylan Pathirana (16:09.51)
Yeah, So, Uju, what inspired you to shift from your corporate career to finding your business TOFA?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (16:21.534)
I also think my parents, I would think, you know, because my parents were entrepreneurs, right? You know, I've told you about my dad and my mom was also into commodities, selling beverages and all of those things. And growing up, the way we were all brought up, every one of us would go after school during the holidays, we all went to boarding houses. So during the holidays, you accompany one of them to his business.

So typically then it got to a point where the guys will accompany our dad to his business and I'll follow my mom. And sometimes I'll go with our dad, you know, and when you go, will assign tasks for you to do. Sometimes it's to go to bank or to deliver things or to do one thing or the other, right? So I saw them, I saw the way they lived and it was a way of life. And I felt entrepreneurship, that's what I was born into at that time.

Dylan Pathirana (17:16.752)
in

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (17:18.402)
But you know, when I worked in banking, I would generally say that entrepreneurship is a calling. Because it's a very difficult thing to do. It's one of the most difficult things I've had to do, to be honest, aside having kids, you know, and raising children. you know, entrepreneurship, because you don't know it's a risk. You don't even know whether what you're doing is going to work, you know, and who goes into, puts everything they have into something they're not sure, no matter how much research.

or how much money you put into it, you're not sure it will work. And even if it's working today, it does not mean it won't work tomorrow. You see, it's very rational. Yes.

Dylan Pathirana (17:56.467)
That's the exciting part. That's like not knowing what's going to happen, right? yeah. And, and, and so tell us, tell us what, what, what that transition piece was like, like, was it, what's the founding story of TOFA?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (18:04.684)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (18:16.194)
Okay, so I'll go back a bit before Tofa. So I did banking for 10 years. Okay. And then I remember towards my last year, was really, I wanted to start a toilet tissue factory because my husband was staying in South Africa at that time. had already got, was married. I had two kids at that time. And then when I go to South Africa,

Dylan Pathirana (18:21.617)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (18:42.99)
to visit, I would always see some tissue papers that they have some drawings of teddy bears on them. They were very nice. I liked it. It wasn't popular. I have never seen it in Nigeria at that time. So I wanted to make that kind of toilet tissue papers, right? So I started saving, you know, and then I left banking to start it up. Before I left, I used all my savings, bought the land, you know, built the factory.

I somewhere to get the machines, borrowed to join what I have, to get the machine, you know, and wanted to start it up. And my idea, you know, when you're working in banking and working commercial banking and work among successful businesses, money looks very easy. you have a million dollars, a hundred million dollars, you know, do LC of 200,000. want to give you, know, money is not...

Dylan Pathirana (19:33.176)
Yeah

Dylan Pathirana (19:41.948)
Yep.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (19:42.594)
very small. So that I said that and everything that could go wrong went wrong. Just so that you know, you know, everything just think about what will go wrong. went wrong. You know, not getting money. Those monies that were looking very small. Suddenly, I couldn't understand why I can't get them. You know, the fact the machines didn't work out well.

selling of the tissue was another big matter. I couldn't even make those kind of tissues in the first instance. It was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. So I had to sell, I had to close, you know. I was in debt, you know. In fact, a friend of mine gave me some money, you know. So luckily, and then I borrowed from the bank too. So I was owing by the time I closed it and to make matters.

Maybe not so bad. I was also pregnant towards the end. In fact, was pregnant for my 10th child. So when I traveled to have my baby, those six weeks were six weeks of clarity for me because I had to tell myself some few home truths. I didn't have the support of my husband to do that business, so I didn't have a back bench at home.

Dylan Pathirana (20:41.234)
You

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (21:06.562)
So it was just me, totally me, and it was difficult, really, very difficult. And so I decided I was gonna close the shop. So when I came back, I systematically started closing. And then I saw the machines paid off the bank so at least I could keep the property. Went to the person that gave me the money. I went to him and said, I'm so sorry. I'm not able to continue, but you know what? I still have this property. I know it may not be enough.

for what I was owing but that's all I have. I don't wanna take it, you know, because I believe that making money is not a fluke. It can be done all over and over again. So I will rest a bit with the baby and then start again. And the guy touched me because he said, so if I take this land, what do you have? I said nothing, but I'm fine. I'm okay. I'll just take my time, rest a bit, maybe live for job. I'm a hard worker, right?

I think it's too busy for me to get a job somewhere. Everybody will be very happy to have me. So I will go take a job and then reshortigize and know what I want to do with my life. And the guy said, no, keep it. He said, keep it, keep the land. Actually that's where our head office is today. He said, keep the land. I trust you, pay me when you can.

Dylan Pathirana (22:23.962)
Wow. Wow.

Dylan Pathirana (22:31.709)
huh. And who was this person?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (22:33.774)
It's just a friend lives on my estate. I'm telling you, I couldn't believe it. And I did pay him. He's owing me right now and I'm not even going to get money from him. I'm not asking. He became a very good friend. So when I sold out, I joined my husband in our family business where we were importing construction finishing products from China and pretty much everywhere in the world.

Dylan Pathirana (22:37.126)
Wow.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (22:59.63)
At the time, we were one of the biggest stockists of electrical products along this leaky corridor in Lagos. And that benefactor of mine that gave me that money was into real estate. So he was building big houses, skyscrapers and all of that. And I solved one problem for me. So we kept in touch. We became very good friends. And he saw my devotion to my husband. I remember very well sometimes when I'm he would say, do you pass by my office?

If I stop, he would just start praying for me. says, the way you carry your husband, the way you do this, God will bless you. And he would give me money. am owing him. So I remember, so I knew that he built the first few houses, big skyscrapers that he built then. And then he was successful. started his view of it. was doing about 300 and something flats. You know, and he ran into trouble, big trouble, right?

He went by himself to China, in bulk so that he could save on cost but it wasn't properly stored so he lost a lot of things. The project was really delayed, people were agitated, the banks were on him, it was a big mess. And then he needed to actually even just open the place so least some people can start living in it. But he can't open because he had a lot of products he needs that...

to finish up, he doesn't have it, it was just something. So he called me to just come and gist with him. So I usually do that, just sit down with him, gist, in the site. So I went that particular day and the event will be the next day and the governor was supposed to come. So while we were there, his staff were complaining, those things were there, they just wanted to make up maybe a flat or two just to showcase. And I was like, what do you need?

And they were like, okay, they need a distribution board. I think that was what they needed at that point. said, distribution board, how many do you want? And he said, well, if we can get like 300, blah, blah, blah. which type? He told me. said, do you have a truck to go and take it? He yes, he said, they have a truck. said, okay, no problem. Send the truck to go. I gave a call to my warehouse people then. I said, call this guy. He will give you what he wants.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (25:25.198)
So I was sitting with him at the site, just in, and his staff that went to the warehouse called him. I was screaming on the phone. So he called me and said, what's going on? And I said, what is it? He said that his staff said that everything they are looking for is in my warehouse.

including light fittings. needed like a thousand five hundred pairs of of light fittings chandeliers wall sockets and all of that. So I said okay give me so he gave me and to be honest that day the product they took was like times five of what I was weighing him.

Dylan Pathirana (26:04.743)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (26:05.835)
And I gave him so that he could solve his problem. And he didn't pay me till today, but that's fine. Because he told me good faith, really. And I'm very grateful, still grateful to him.

Dylan Pathirana (26:07.506)
Mm.

Dylan Pathirana (26:11.164)
Yeah, yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (26:16.132)
Yeah, you're doing a favor for him. Returning the favor. Return the favor. And then so transitioning from that kind of construction commodity business.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (26:24.046)
So, yeah, so while we were there, so I was in my family business for like 10 years too, right? And so, you know how it is. I felt that we needed, because in my studies and research I do, I know that businesses evolve, right? It's like a curve, you know, so you get to your highest and then it starts dropping. And so you must innovate to be able to carry yourself, maybe not that part of the business.

Dylan Pathirana (26:42.609)
Yep.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (26:52.334)
I was thinking of how else to innovate the family business. And at that point, we were already also doing construction finishings, doing the labor part of it, as well as the hardware part of it as well. So to do all of that, I felt I needed to broaden my own mindset. So I enrolled in the China Europe International Business School for their global executive MBA. By the way, I'm the class president of the Zuri Gemba 2016.

Dylan Pathirana (27:22.236)
Wow.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (27:22.358)
You know, so yes, so I wrote in that school and then whilst there was when the Nigerian government placed FX control, the exchange rate of the dollars to the Naira was quite high. That was the first time we go to 500 Naira to one dollar. Right now is about a thousand five hundred. Well, that time, 2016, 2017 was when it happened. And the difficult thing then was that product prices didn't increase.

Product prices remained the same and became lower actually. But the exchange rate, so for us importers, it was very difficult because you are importing higher, but you're supposed to pay to sell lower. So how were you going to do it? So I was not looking for who to, how I could get cheaper dollar so that, because we had invoices to settle in China. Okay. And so half of my class in Sibs, Sibs is the number one business school in China. Okay.

Dylan Pathirana (27:58.898)
Yep.

Dylan Pathirana (28:19.92)
Mm-hmm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (28:20.812)
Yes, it is. So half of my classmates were Chinese. So was thinking I could get someone to do like a currency swap with me. Maybe they have some things they're doing in Africa, could help them make payments and all of that. But I didn't find. But someone introduced me to an agripreneur, someone involved in agricultural commodities. She's raised off of China, out of Ghana. So one of our program, because the Global Egyptive MBA

Dylan Pathirana (28:42.48)
Yep.

Dylan Pathirana (28:46.418)
Mm-hmm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (28:49.966)
was fashion in such a way that we were taking classes from different parts of the world every other month. So we do Europe, do Africa, do Asia, do China, do the US, different places, Brazil, all that. So on one of our trips, African trip we would take in Ghana, I met the lady and she wanted a partner in Nigeria that could help her.

source for agricultural commodities when they need it. So I thought I could help her. I have the Naira. I could help make the payments here. And then they will only just pay me in dollars. In fact, she proposed to share profit with me. So was like a prayer answered, right? And that period was, it was, it was around March, April. was around March, February, March, around this time really. And she, they needed granites.

Dylan Pathirana (29:30.619)
and nice.

Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (29:47.694)
and was also cashew period. It was this time. So she said she had Indian customers that wanted granols, about 20 containers, 400 metric tons. So I was quite excited. I called back Nigeria, got samples, sent to her. They approved it. It was Java grid. They approved it. And they said they would make it very interesting if I could bring.

the products to a warehouse in Lagos, will come to Lagos, inspect, pay me on the spot. In fact, if I even want, they were going to send the money for me to China to solve my problems. So I was quite excited about it, you know, and send samples, they approved and I started looking for the products. I didn't find, I didn't find the product. And I know that Nigeria is one of the

Dylan Pathirana (30:27.1)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (30:44.11)
At that time, one of the biggest growers of granites, I didn't find, I put together a team to help look for. The team went around different places and they came back to me to say that I had to give them cash. They would carry the cash to different markets and be buying in piece meals. And in my head, as they were saying that in my head, I was trying to understand.

Dylan Pathirana (30:48.561)
Mm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (31:12.13)
because 400 metric tons will be 4,000 bags of 100 kg bags or 8,000 or 50 kg bags. That would be 400 metric tons. So I was imagining how they would go to this market, C10. They would buy that, say, where will you keep it? They said they wouldn't warehouse. The logistics were just too much for me. So it wasn't something I could put myself into.

Dylan Pathirana (31:23.174)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (31:35.953)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (31:40.46)
I think because I wasn't in the business, don't know the nuances of that business nor how to navigate myself in the business. So we lost the deal.

Yeah, a few days down the line, I woke up in the middle of the night, I had fever. And I think the fever stems from the fact that I saw a solution to a problem I have, and I couldn't execute to unlock the solution. And I also think that because I was in school for our program, we had already had a case on Alibaba. So

With that knowledge, I felt the frustration Jack Ma had when he couldn't find Chinese beer on the internet.

Dylan Pathirana (32:26.482)
You

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (32:27.886)
Because I was thinking, if I, a Nigerian living in Lagos with cash, couldn't find granotes to buy, how are the Indians, the Chinese, finding granote in Nigeria? That was a question. So I felt that somebody needs to create visibility of what is possible and put it there so that anybody could find it and buy, because I believe

Dylan Pathirana (32:43.588)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (32:56.536)
that there are people who are looking for who to buy their products.

Dylan Pathirana (33:02.3)
So how did you go about solving it? Because I think this is so fascinating for me, especially like there's so many small individual players, as you said, all of these, you know, potentially family farms growing all of these products. How do you go about aggregating that so that they can sell to kind of the national and international market?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (33:22.99)
Well, you know, I was hit with a triple whammy, just so that you know, you know, I don't have all the answers. I still don't. But, you know, coming from a business school like Sibs, I felt that if I just created a platform like Alibaba, you know, and get people on the platform that they will meet themselves and they will trade amongst themselves, I'll just create the visibility, you know. So I was thinking that way. Once you create the platform, everything is okay.

I created a platform, nothing was happening.

Dylan Pathirana (33:54.044)
Yeah

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (33:55.724)
nothing nothing in fact two months down the line i couldn't pay salary

Dylan Pathirana (34:02.578)
Mm-hmm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (34:03.308)
You know, because no trade, nobody was talking. I've put my bias come. I wasn't seeing anything. So I tried to dig why and I realized that two, three things faced me. Tech for tech sake is nonsense. As sexy as your tech is, if people are not using it, you just, you just, just reset your time. That's one. Two, trade in Africa is somehow.

Dylan Pathirana (34:07.567)
Mm.

Dylan Pathirana (34:20.506)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (34:33.09)
there is a trust matter that must be solved. If you do not solve for trust, trade will not happen. Because I realized that buyers and sellers were meeting on the platform, but then buyers will ask the seller to supply me and I pay you. And seller is saying pay me and I supply you. I don't trust you. Even amongst Africans. So trade wasn't happening. Another thing is okay, payment terms.

Dylan Pathirana (34:35.58)
Mm-hmm.

Dylan Pathirana (34:40.466)
Mm.

Dylan Pathirana (34:53.798)
Yeah. Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (35:02.732)
Buyers, especially the international buyers want to pay through letters of credit. For an African supplier, letters of credit is paper. He just needs cash to be able to do the trade and give you. And I'm talking the genuine ones that want to do this trade. So how do you solve for trust? How do you solve for treatment terms? And because I'm fearless, like I've told you, and I believe that anything I have to do, I have to do it.

You know, and I don't chicken out easily. Maybe that's why I'm inside this quagmire self because maybe I should have chickened out that time and said, you know what? I've tried. It's not working. I have left. And that's why I also know that entrepreneurship is a calling because if it's not a calling, you will want to leave after a while. I didn't want to go. I just kept looking for what the problem is, finding that problem, solving it and meeting the next problem. You know, that's what has happened in the last eight years, you know, because

To solve for trust, had to create a source pro unit, created a TI to be able to get the funding, give these guys the money where they need it. These guys collect the letters of credit, so everybody's happier than trade could happen. We created massive issues as well. Losses came as a result. So it's as if you have one win and 10 losses. Take one step forward and take 20 back, and then you keep trudging. Difficult, trust me.

It has to happen because that visibility needs to be there in the first instance, you know, for buyers to be able to see what is available. And I'm not just talking only global buyers. I'm also talking about Africans knowing that these things are some of the things I import are actually done by my neighbors. And I could, you know, take that. not saying you shouldn't buy imported products. I'm also saying that there are local options, you know, and putting it out there because

If it's out there, the local people are able to sell, then they can also grow and increase their capacity in all of that. having to oil all of that and make that work is where the work is. And that's what we're doing.

Dylan Pathirana (37:09.266)
And, and, majority of your, people who use the platform, are they kind of larger producers or do you still even get like that small scale producers and you're like kind of aggregating them?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (37:21.784)
both. So you see, like I say, what observes today from what obtained eight years ago, really different. So I always ask my question, what does a big manufacturing outfit in Ivory Coast require today?

Dylan Pathirana (37:44.624)
Mm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (37:44.824)
Sometimes the requirement is not visibility because they are visible. Sometimes the requirement is not who we supply to them because everybody who wants to supply is willing to supply to them because they know them and they can bring the products to them. Sometimes what they need is somebody to help them make those payments when those products are put in so that these suppliers are happier to continue to bring products to him. Sometimes what he needs is

Dylan Pathirana (38:08.486)
Mm-mm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (38:10.744)
There are banks giving him money, the money, because of single or legal units, the banks are not able to give all that money at once. And so he's having to deal with 20 banks to be able to get the volume of money he needs to deal. So is that possible? Is it a possibility to have an outfit where he can get enough for him to be able to continue to do his business? So it's not just creating the visibility. Like I say, so over the years we have transformed from just being

Dylan Pathirana (38:31.73)
Mm-mm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (38:38.802)
marketplace, creating visibility to a Pan-African hub for facilitating trade. So facilitating trade now comes in different ways. Of course the marketplace is still there but we now have to create sofa pay because we now have to deal with this kind of people and also the smallholder farmers in remote African villages who require just cash payments. How do you help them?

Dylan Pathirana (39:00.466)
So Uju, do you think really you're champion the way that Nigerians are thinking? You like you kind of change the way they're thinking of transactions, right? As you mentioned earlier, you know, pretty much they are pretty traditional with cash transactions and doing things like, you know, not online. Online is still a novel thing for them.

Do you think you actually transformed that, the mental thing in Nigeria? Or there's a long way to go?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (39:36.782)
Well, I don't know. There's a long way to go. That's what I was coming to. It's not Uhuru yet. Africans would say it's not Uhuru. I said it's not Eldorado yet, right? You know, we're still, it's the process and the process is still long. You know, if you remember just a few years ago, after the African Continental Free Trade Area Agreement was signed and ratified by banks to make it easy for

Africans to even trade amongst themselves, you know, we are talking since I have not even mentioned logistics, which is a big headache on his own, you know, so all of these things are the things that make online trade difficult because Trade buying and selling online is very easy, but is the fulfillment of the trade Which logistics is the is what plays the whole part, you know, how do we move something from Lagos Nigeria to Nairobi Kenya and how fast can it go?

sometimes is easier, cheaper and faster for you to move things to the United States of America, from Lagos to United States or Lagos to China, than for you to move this thing from Lagos, Nigeria to Ghana.

Dylan Pathirana (40:32.593)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (40:47.674)
And was your family supportive of this business? know they weren't at the previous one, but of this one.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (40:53.3)
well, come say come say. More like, do you like trouble? You know, I think that's what I hear. You like trouble. You know, why can't you just do the simple things? Maybe own a hair shop. I'm not saying, I mean, hair shop is also not easy. No business is easy, but you know, do something simple. Trying to revolutionise the way

Dylan Pathirana (40:59.833)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (41:21.506)
business and trade is done is difficult. And trying to do it well and still keep your head up is very difficult. And working in Africa where all odds seem to be against you is what makes it more difficult. Starting from funding, not having enough funding to work, the people, different things, different movements.

Dylan Pathirana (41:44.922)
And have you had any like feedback from, from any of your customers that like pushes you to keep going? Like have you heard from farmers who have just like told you that this is revolutionized the way that they kind of do trade?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (41:57.228)
Plenty. Plenty. But like I said, somebody can give you, very happy with your platform today. Tomorrow, he's no longer happy because he found something else he wants to do. So we're still at that stage. And like I say, it's evolving, right? I think when we started, when we were onboarding suppliers and traders and farmers on our platform, on one of our trips, because what I tried to do when we started was three things was important to me.

I wanted it to be Pan-African. I didn't want it to be just a Nigerian company. I wanted it to be Pan-African because then the market is large. I also wanted to just own the tech. Okay, I wasn't going to own anything. I was just going to own the tech. So I don't have warehouse. We'll put it in just in time model, you know, and all of that. So when we were onboarding suppliers on that platform, my team went to the upper Vuta region in Ghana and they were told that two days prior to them coming there,

There was a guy who borrowed money to plant tomatoes, and then they harvested. But because no buyer came, and he couldn't sell, of course tomatoes being imperishable goods, know, perished. And because he didn't see any way for him to pay back what he borrowed, he committed suicide.

Yes. You know, so when my team got there, they were seen as godsends and of course, I bothered everyone on the platform. But you know, this is just one of the many stories that, you know, abound on the reason why visibility is very key. But like I always say, visibility alone is not the answer because even if you've created visibility for this farmer, if he still doesn't sell, the same thing will happen. So there's also all of those moving pieces.

that needs to happen simultaneously. But bottom line is that let the trade happen.

Dylan Pathirana (43:53.075)
So Uju, Alibaba inspired you to start this business and I also saw you doing some business with Alibaba or some kind of relationship with Alibaba.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (44:09.378)
Okay, so you can imagine that I started, I wanted to be Alibaba for Africa and I've been stickingly courted them since we started. I was invited to their office for their e-commerce, their e-founders fellowship program. It's a program that was organized by the Alibaba Global Initiative and the UNCTAD, United Nations Center for Trade and Development. So they took a few of us.

to Alibaba Shishi campus in Shanghai, impressive campus. It's actually more interesting and finer now. And for two weeks, they exposed all to the whole of Alibaba, not the whole, but to a lot of Alibaba's ecosystem, you know, and made us understand how they began and all of that, just to open and broaden our mindset as well. You know, I'm forever indebted to that program, I must say.

because I remember that when I was founding TUFA, my idea was to be everywhere in Africa, open in Africa, have my offices in everywhere in Africa. But after that program, I realized that even Alibaba doesn't do that. So Alibaba thrives on partnership.

Okay, so I got my aha moment on the day we went to the logistics place and I was reading The history of tania and how alibaba started with 35 logistics companies I was reading it if you go there walking up to the boardroom On the the staircase there are pictures On the staircase. I don't know how my eye caught that there are letters on the picture. So while people were upstairs

I took my time walking up gradually and reading the history. And that was my hard moment in my whole two weeks of being there. So it changed my mindset because it means that I have to continuously look for partners, people to work with me. The easiest thing to do is to walk alone. And then you come out, you're doing your thing because then you're doing your thing. But you don't go far because there are issues and I've tried it. Sometimes I forget myself. I still try to do things by myself. But I realized that even if I

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (46:24.374)
Even if I encounter or I enjoy a novel success, it doesn't last. I encounter issues. So it means I have to find a way to collaborate with other people to have a long lasting success and a success that is sustainable. So that's what I'm doing. So TOFA collaborates with different people in different countries doing different things. My last collaboration is with Afreexam.

Dylan Pathirana (46:42.482)
Mm.

Alright.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (46:52.632)
you know, and all of that, to do so many things. So I no longer will do things by myself. You know, I always have some people doing those things.

Dylan Pathirana (47:02.194)
And that seems like a key kind of lesson that you've learned throughout your time in business. Are there any other key lessons that you've of taken away from this eight year journey?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (47:13.144)
sure.

Dylan Pathirana (47:14.844)
Show up.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (47:16.472)
just show up you know as an entrepreneur I realize that there are days when you don't want to remove the duvet from your head you know you just cover your head with the duvet and stay there you just want to stay there with the lights all out no noise nothing you just want to put yourself and never wake up you know but in the midst of all of that you know ability to get up dust yourself take a bath we are

wear your cloth and go there and sit down even when you don't understand what you're doing. Even when you're what you're doing is not making sense to you, you know, just go there because because it is when you show up that opportunities will come. In fact, I realize that the highest things that have happened to me in Tufa were when I was at my lowest. I realized that transactions were not happening. So

Do I clean up? Do I close? Is it that close shop and go because and then the idea comes look at the problem solve for trust, solve for payment terms and we started doing a bit of that, transactions started happening. Of course it came with its own issues. You are making losses. How do you streamline the losses? How do you pay back the debt? How do you do this? You know another issue came up another

Dylan Pathirana (48:36.37)
Thank

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (48:43.648)
Idea came up, you tried it, it's working, it's working but this issue came up again so how do I solve for this? So it's like we continuously solving problem and if you don't show up, two things happen. People don't see you as serious. So it means that even the right partners that you want are not interested in working with you because they believe that you are not consistent. Okay, and then when you don't show up, those opportunities when they come, you're not there.

So if you're not there, the next person who is there takes it. And I learned this from one of my brothers. So my second brother, Emeka, is a businessman, right? Still is. He told me a story many years ago. Whale Barrow, if you know Whale Barrow, right? Barrow, I don't know. They use it in construction sites. He was one of the guys, yes, Whale Barrow. He was one of the guys that,

Dylan Pathirana (49:36.561)
A little better.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (49:42.702)
At the time in the East, was not very common. So was one of the guys importing it at that time. In fact, it was the highest, you know, import. He had some guys distributing it for him and all of that. But he was not making a lot of money from it. You know, he had other business lines that was giving him more money. And the, I think the Chinese or the people that he was buying from were encouraging him to continue. He felt no, he wasn't going to continue to do it. He stopped.

Dylan Pathirana (49:56.102)
Ahem.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (50:12.47)
In fact, what he did was that he called the guy who was doing most of the distribution for him and gave him the contact of the manufacturers and said, deal with these guys, that's fine.

So he left, it was as if he left at a time when he should stay because it didn't take up to a year or two. Wheelbarrow became very popular, everybody became, it became a huge thing till today.

So the lesson he told me, when I go to him and I say I'm complaining, he said, would you stay there?

Dylan Pathirana (50:52.85)
Mm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (50:52.974)
stay there, don't go. He says, sometimes it will be like, no, there are other things I can do, can stay there. In fact, when it gets very difficult, stay there because what happens is that every other person leaves. And if you're number 10, number five will leave, you become number nine. Number four will leave, you become number eight. Eight will leave, seven will leave, become... At the time, you realize that you're number one and there's nobody else. And at that...

point is when opportunities open up in that space and it doesn't make sense for any other person to deal with any other person apart from you.

Dylan Pathirana (51:31.439)
Great advice, Uju. So on that, do you now looking back regret kind of closing up your first business?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (51:41.303)
No.

Dylan Pathirana (51:42.194)
So then is on the back of that, is there a time when you know it's right to finish like a right to walk away?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (51:49.006)
Yes, you feel it.

Dylan Pathirana (51:53.074)
You feel it.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (51:55.022)
You know, you know, they say, remember what the professor and that was that professor's name that says hope is a strategy.

Dylan Pathirana (51:59.571)
Thank

Dylan Pathirana (52:05.52)
Yep. And yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (52:07.896)
Hope is a strategy. So when you're in the business, no longer see the future in that business. Truthfully. So what I have also learned over the last two, three years is to hold myself accountable, all right, for everything. And also tell myself the whole truth. I've already done that. The whole truth. So I take stock by myself. I sit down and I say,

Dylan Pathirana (52:09.786)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (52:31.794)
Okay.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (52:38.018)
This is the truth of this. You know, I can talk to you about my business and paint it all so well that you love my business. But inside me, I'm the one that knows that this business is not going to work. You know, I'm lying here. You can't lie to yourself, right? So they said to yourself, true. So if you're true to yourself, your answer is there. Your answer, you might say, well, this is a huge business. I only fully, I can get ABC. So

Dylan Pathirana (52:53.734)
Yeah. Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (53:07.68)
You have your answer there. How do I get ABC? So even if you're doing CDE, you know that I have to leave CDE and move to look for ABC because that's what I need.

Dylan Pathirana (53:08.626)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (53:19.698)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you, I read somewhere on the net in 2019, you won entrepreneurship World Cup in Nigeria and then represent Nigeria. Yeah, tell us about it, please.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (53:33.187)
Yes, I did.

in Saudi Arabia.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (53:41.026)
So the Global Entrepreneurship Network had, it's like entrepreneurship world cup that is done all over the world, right? So the Nigerian path, and this was my first ever competition, first ever. I have never gone out to pitch tofa to anybody before then.

Dylan Pathirana (54:02.002)
.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (54:10.508)
I didn't know what to expect. So I went there saying, let me just go and say my own and learn. That was my mindset going there to learn. So when they called the third position, called the second position on my own, I already know who should be the first position at that point. And it wasn't us. So you can imagine if I there called two fuzz.

I didn't get up because it didn't sink like was so far. It was my staff that came with me that started jumping. When I looked at them, I was like, oh, sorry! It was also a good experience because what they wanted was to put global 100 companies from all over the world. And so they assembled all of us in Riyadh, first in Jeddah and then to Riyadh.

Dylan Pathirana (54:50.053)
You

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (55:08.61)
The idea is to, they also exposed that next to us, if we are interested in setting up our businesses in Saudi Arabia, they gave us all of that, it's still available. But the idea is to mentorship, know, how to talk more about your business, open the mindset. talking is key in what we are doing. I really enjoy entrepreneurs or people, not even just entrepreneurs, people to keep building your network. They say you're as rich or as big as your network is.

Dylan Pathirana (55:22.652)
Thank

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (55:38.016)
Okay, so that's what we did there. A very huge experience for me. know, first time.

Dylan Pathirana (55:45.007)
Nice. That's awesome. And I suppose today we've spoken a lot about business, but at the beginning you mentioned, you know, family is quite a big, big part. Can you tell us a little bit about, know, what having kids has taught you? What, like, what, what does family mean to you?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (56:04.344)
Family is everything to me. I mean, I keep saying, if you're very successful in your business and you have all the money in the world and you have no one to spend that money with, you've wasted your life. So it's very important that what should matter, matter. And my family comes first.

Dylan Pathirana (56:26.066)
How do you balance Ujju, like the family and work and all that?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (56:31.83)
I don't know whether this is a good platform to say it, but I've also learned not to be apologetic about it anymore before I used to be, but I'm a child of God, right? I tell myself that and I know that somehow God, not I somehow, I know that God has a hand in helping me navigate it. So let me give you an instance.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (57:00.118)
I have had opportunities, business opportunities, that will entail that I am away when any of my kids are taking an external examination. And I have cancelled my business opportunity just to be there as moral support for my child to go to school and take that exam. And there's nothing I'm doing, it's just being in the hall, sitting down, waiting for four hours.

for that child to go and take an exam and come back and meet me and I take her home. Just their moral support. So I have realized also the hand of God at work in timing and placement using this entrepreneurship world cup that we just spoke about going from Saudi Arabia, from Jeddah to Riyadh. And then I also had to, I was invited for the first ever Alibaba.

Business heroes the summit that they did in warmer in 2019 to come and present stufa to an audience that has the president of Ghana Jack Ma gently the All these guys and you know what happened. I needed I was in Jeddah, I think 14 15 16 no 9 10 11 12 13 5 days and

Dylan Pathirana (57:59.858)
Hmm

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (58:26.092)
I will speak on the 16th. So I finished the event. I didn't stay for the party in Riyadh. I left that night, landed in Ghana the next afternoon and my event was the next morning.

Dylan Pathirana (58:46.386)
dedication.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (58:47.502)
And all of these things were events that I do not have any hand in planning the timing because if I do have a hand I can say okay let me manage it the way it will work for me right? But these were events and trust me Jam this has happened not once, not twice, not three times, not four times it has always happened to me. If I have events somehow it looks as if there's a being orchestrating it and once I see it I see it as a confirmation that it's something you have to do.

because he needs it happen.

Dylan Pathirana (59:20.88)
Yeah. And I suppose, you know, what's next for you, you?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (59:27.0)
To grow Tofa, this Tofa, we need to grow it, right? To where it needs to be. There's a lot of changes happening in Tofa. You know, there's a lot of partnerships coming in. What I have done in Tofa is to put like three, four companies together and run it as one. Going by the last OPM unit three, two things hit at me, two things.

the G.E.B.'s review. know, you remember G.E.B.'s, G-E-B-E-S, Nitin Tako? Okay. His case hit at me, you know, and also Professor Matt Hoop. You know, so I left that unit very short.

Dylan Pathirana (01:00:07.11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-mm.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:00:26.644)
of what I should do and I'm executing as it is. There's a lot of partnership conversations that is going on that will entail that a few of what we are doing is going to be handled by other people. Two of them, we are scaling up as well to figures that scares even me that I can't even mention to any next person around me because you...

Dylan Pathirana (01:00:54.5)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:00:55.714)
You think I'm having hallucinations. But that's the truth. And that's the next step for Tufa. And I'm just praying to God that I'm able to do what I must to get to where we are because I just have like five years to give this company.

Dylan Pathirana (01:01:13.84)
Yeah. That sounds really exciting. I suppose wrapping this conversation up, looking back on your journey, do you feel successful?

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:01:26.697)
on the path.

I'm on the path of success. I'm happy because three of my kids are in college, right? And my last is in high school. So I'm happy that in the midst of the challenges I've had in TUFA, they still came first. I don't have any qualms. It hasn't changed. I would think that trying to TUFA would change that mindset that TUFA now comes first before the family.

I have continued to keep the family first and it has worked. So I'm grateful for that. It's graciousness. I'm just a very grateful person and thankful to God and for the people God has put in my path. Because I'm the child of God, I don't believe in coincidence. That's the reason why I made that. And that's why have this conversation today. That's it.

Dylan Pathirana (01:02:24.038)
to say. Yeah, absolutely.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:02:28.234)
And I've met people who have touched me in that class. Casey is one. I can't even understand the kind of person that guy is. There are some people like him in that class too that are discussed. Mohit. Mohit doesn't know. Mohit Jane. He'll be surprised when he sees this. But he doesn't know. There's a comment he made to me. He might...

Dylan Pathirana (01:02:33.168)
Yeah, it's awesome.

Dylan Pathirana (01:02:39.291)
Yeah.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:02:55.382)
He may not know what that comment meant to me. And that comment, don't know whether it was even a positive comment like that. But that comment did a lot to me. He doesn't know. I'm not going to share it until next year. Next year, not even this reunion. The next reunion is when I'm going to tell him what he did for me. And I'm very grateful to him. it's been, I didn't know that I would go attend Harvard Business School.

and the OPM, I didn't know. So I'm just a very grateful person to God.

Dylan Pathirana (01:03:32.721)
Yeah. And you, you, you show up as well. Yeah. As you mentioned, you show up in your business life and also your family life. And I suppose to wrap this conversation up throughout our discussion, I've been jotting down a few key factors, which I think have led to your successful life. And I want to share them with you. The first one is you're very family centered. mean, throughout our discussion that came up so many times, and I think having that kind of core base of family.

allows you to have something that you can always look back who you're doing this for. And it gives you that to kind of build upon. So I think that's important. And then the second one is your unwavering confidence. Like the amount of stuff that you've done and you've just gone out and just with full confidence gone. Yeah, fearlessness. And I think that's so important for especially overcoming risk and taking on challenges.

is having that self-confidence and that fearlessness. And I think that's been super important to where you've gotten to today. And as I suppose an extension of that is resilience. There's been so many times where things didn't go your way. There was a few failures in there, but you managed to bounce back from those failures and get to where you are today. TOEFA is doing well based on the experiences that you've had being able to push through your past learnings. And then...

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:04:34.584)
Thank you.

Dylan Pathirana (01:04:53.692)
The last one is learning. I mean, you mentioned so many courses that you've done in there, whether it was Harvard, all your studies that you did, you went over to a business school as well. You you're constantly trying to learn and it's not just formal education either. I think learning from other people through partnerships and external programs as well. There's so much learning that goes on that you're constantly trying to do to kind of push yourself forward.

And one thing that I've noticed, knowing you, Uju, for last three years, almost three years, is your authenticity. You're really authentic. Uju is Uju. Everybody knows. I think that's definitely part of your anchor in your trust triangle. And that really helps you to build partnership, relationship. And it's a privilege to have this conversation with you, Uju.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:05:33.454)
you

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:05:50.059)
Thank you. Thank you guys. I had fun. Did you notice?

Dylan Pathirana (01:05:53.042)
Definitely, we had so much fun.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:05:56.75)
Thank you and all the best with the quest for success.

Dylan Pathirana (01:06:00.401)
Thank you so much. And if you are listening and you've gotten something out of today's conversation, if you could do us a massive favor and head over to our YouTube channel and subscribe to us there, or you can follow all of our episodes and see them on our website, the quest for success podcast.com. And with that, we'll see you guys in the next episode. Thanks for listening. Thank you, Joe. Thanks. Hey, thank you so much. That was a nice conversation.

Uju Uzo-Ojinnaka (01:06:18.19)
Bye.