Breaking Through: How Hanan Nagi Redefined Success Against the Odds

In this episode of The Quest for Success Podcast, we sit down with Hanan Nagi - founder & CEO of HNI Training & Coaching - to unpack her remarkable journey from a challenging childhood in Egypt to leading one of the Middle East’s most innovative learning and development companies.

Hanan opens up about how adversity shaped her drive, why education and coaching became catalysts for change, and how she built (and scaled) a business through empathy, innovation, and bold risk-taking - even in the middle of a pandemic. We dive into leadership rooted in humility, the evolution of company culture, and the growing role of women redefining what success looks like in business.

In this conversation, we cover:
•How success evolves from material wins to meaningful fulfilment
•The link between childhood adversity, resilience, and ambition
•Coaching, self-awareness, and reflection as tools for transformation
•Building HNI: identifying client pain points and innovating delivery
•Scaling during crisis: adaptability, necessity-driven innovation, and culture
•Leading with empathy, humility, and purpose
•Women in leadership: challenging norms and owning your space
•Legacy as impact - helping others grow and thrive

If you’re building a business, leading a team, or seeking deeper fulfillment beyond titles and numbers, this episode is for you.

Connect with Hanan Nagi
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hanan-nagi-9558244

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Transcript

Dylan Pathirana (00:11.601)
Welcome back to the quest for success podcast. And thanks so much for tuning in once again.

Dylan Pathirana (00:36.206)
Today on the show, we're really excited because we have Hanna Nagi, who is the founder of HNI, which is a training and coaching organization. Hanna is also an entrepreneur from Dubai and I had the privilege of meeting her at the Harvard Business School. And Hanna, thank you so much for taking time and joining us today.

Hanan Nagi (00:58.534)
Welcome, thank you for inviting me.

Dylan Pathirana (01:00.898)
So Hannah, this discussion is all about success. So we need to lay the foundation and we need to understand what does success actually mean to you?

Hanan Nagi (01:04.38)
Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (01:12.274)
When? Because I believe, yeah, I believe that success, the definition of success changes throughout your life. So maybe 20 years ago, success for me was more financial, the status, the apartment or house, the car. Now it means something different. And for me at the moment, success is more about fulfillment.

Dylan Pathirana (01:16.396)
Let's start with right now. Let's start with right now.

Hanan Nagi (01:42.362)
It's not cliche, I really mean it. You reach a point of your life where you know that materialistic success is important. I'd never say it was not, OK? But there is more to life and to success than just achieving financial or materialistic success. So to me at this stage, it's about how did I live my day?

And I know it sounds a little bit philosophical, but it's the truth. At the end of every day, before I go to sleep, I ask myself, was that a day worth living? That started a couple of years ago and completely changed my life and what I spend my effort on and what I get upset about and what I get stressed about. Because again, priorities have shifted over the past few years.

So I always ask myself in the morning as much as possible when I sometimes I forget, but I ask what role do I want to play today? Whom do I need to be today? Because we play so many different roles. so today I want to be the best mother I could be. Today I want to be the absolute best CEO I could be. Or I want to be just reflective. I want to take care of myself. What is the role?

And then at the end of the day, I asked myself, was this day worth living? So did I achieve what I wanted to achieve in the morning? Because life is just days and hours and moments. And the best way to achieve success, in my opinion, at this stage of my life is to feel fulfilled and to really enjoy the role.

So if I am a mom, I want to be as present as possible as a mom. If I'm a CEO, I want to be the best leader my team could have and not get in my head because people like us tend to spend a lot of time in their heads and that unfortunately takes away from being present and enjoying the moment and life is the moment. There's no past and future is an illusion. So don't have that answer your question.

Dylan Pathirana (03:46.882)
Mm.

Dylan Pathirana (03:59.279)
No, that's fantastic. So you mentioned when you're like at the end of the day, you're asking that question. You're not just asking the question, have I achieved those things I plan on in the morning? You're more asking, you know, is it worthwhile living? Right. So that's a definition like the difference between

Have I achieved and is it worth living? Why you're not asking the question? Is it worth? Like have I achieved rather than worthwhile living?

Hanan Nagi (04:42.224)
Because you could achieve goals you set for yourself, but not necessarily feel fulfilled. So it could be a goal or something that you need to achieve, but not necessarily make you happy or give you joy. And it doesn't mean it has to be easy. It could be challenging, but it makes you feel alive. It makes you feel like you're adding value.

Dylan Pathirana (04:47.906)
Okay.

Hanan Nagi (05:09.21)
to someone else's life. It doesn't have to be all about tick, tick, tick, because I've always been that person, know, the checklist always. And that's what I'm trying to shift now. Like, it's OK to look back at the day and see what I had done, but not necessarily all of them give me the fulfillment. It could be one thing. Like, it could be a day full of activities and errands to run and meetings to attend.

There is that one hour lunch with a good friend where I was fully present and had a really good conversation that made the day worth living. So it's a mix of both. We cannot have every moment of every day fulfilling and uplifting. And that's not realistic either. But at least I make sure that it is not a day wasted because life is precious.

Dylan Pathirana (05:46.403)
Mm-hmm.

Hanan Nagi (06:05.58)
At this stage, I cherish every day that I live with good health and count my blessings. And I go like, OK, I had to do so many things today for so many people. What did I do for myself? Not again, it's not necessarily all well-being and having a massage. And it could be something to do with work, but fulfilling, something to do for my family or a friend, but fulfilling. So was that day worth living?

And the sense of success come from.

Did it count, really? Or it felt like, I just wasted a day doing things that added nothing to me or others.

Dylan Pathirana (06:46.862)
Yeah. I really liked that philosophy. I think that's a really special one, but I suppose for us to understand the woman who's sitting in front of us today, we need to understand a little bit about your early context. Can you take us back to your childhood and walk us through a little bit of that and how you think it's shaped who you've become today.

Hanan Nagi (07:03.442)
Okay.

Hanan Nagi (07:07.954)
Right. So for those who know me, I had a rough childhood. So I grew up in Egypt. I'm Egyptian. unfortunately, due to our financial circumstances at the time, we were struggling financially a lot. So my parents were very young when they got married. My mom had me when she was, I don't know, not even 19. And do you know what happens when two people

get married at such an early age, the probabilities are low, I wouldn't say impossible. So unfortunately, they eventually got divorced and I had to take care of the family when I was 11. So that was really, yeah, that was tough. And in Egypt, the eldest daughter, so we were three kids, the eldest daughter is expected to take over. So I was the one taking care of.

everything cleaning, cooking, taking care of the siblings, my dad. So that wasn't fun. you can imagine, it was hard. Now I talk about it like this, but as you can again imagine, you know, like 20 years ago, that was not an easy conversation for me. So I started, I started the, I was good in school. Like I was a good student. I liked school, not necessarily the system, but I just, I enjoyed learning. And, and

Dylan Pathirana (08:18.463)
Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (08:36.706)
because of our financial situation, I had to start working at 14, so part-time. But that was good in a way that it made me the person who I am today. The 14-year-old girl in the streets of Cairo was not, again, it's not easy to explain, but I managed to save some money and at 16, something inside me said, you need to learn English.

It's just, it's kind of about that. I had no idea how or why I got to knew that I needed to get out to the big, big world and to do more, but I had no idea why I had no idea how. I just knew that I needed to speak English and, so I saved a little bit. and, I took a good three months course with a great teacher. And then I continued on my own, you know, watching movies and with that subtitled all of that.

And finally enough years later, because I really wanted to go to college and I wanted to go to an English language department, which was very difficult considering I was not coming from an English speaking school. You know, typically you start very early in order to go to an English language department in any decent college. But I actually did. And I ended up graduating as an English language teacher for high school students.

Dylan Pathirana (09:59.395)
Wow.

Hanan Nagi (10:01.794)
Yeah, but I never actually worked as a teacher. I am in a similar field now, which is adult education, corporate training and learning. So transfer of knowledge and adding value in this sphere, I think, had always been a passion of mine. yeah, so that's the childhood. So it was rough. I actually continued working full time.

since I was 18. So 14 to 18 part-time. 18 is a legal age where you can work full-time. And I had never stopped since. So that's 30 years of working non-stop today. Yeah, that'll be my age. Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (10:40.78)
Wow. Well, there's so much, so much that we could unpack there. But one thing that I want to delve into is, you know, considering your family circumstance, was there any, like, older people that you looked up to, to get advice or?

Hanan Nagi (10:58.96)
Yes. Yes. I think it was a Harvard study that said that children need one adult who could be the role model or the caretaker, the constant, the permanent caretaker in their life. And luckily, luckily, that was my grandma, Femi. She's the person I admire the most. She's the one who taught me since a very early age the importance of education.

Although she was a very simple woman, she was not educated herself. She was the one who always told me, your best way out of this mess is education. So whatever happens, promise me you will have a better life and that you will continue learning no matter what. You've never stopped and you will go to college because there are a lot of people in our family, not at least our immediate family. I was the first person to go to college.

We weren't talking about Harvard at the time, we were just talking about her getting a college degree. she was until the separation happened at the age of 11. She was the constant role model in my life and the one I lived with.

Dylan Pathirana (11:57.539)
Yeah

Dylan Pathirana (12:15.95)
So, Hennan, like, you know, sounds like it's a tough time, right? Like how many siblings you had? I mean, two?

Hanan Nagi (12:26.15)
I had two and now I have, yeah, now we're four because we have my half-sister who's kind of like, she's like my daughter now, very, very close, but she's from my mom's second marriage. And yeah, and I had two siblings, two boys. One was two years younger and one was 10 years younger.

Dylan Pathirana (12:33.121)
Alright.

Dylan Pathirana (12:45.974)
Okay, so like you know, I mean, they're all younger to you, you're the eldest sister and I guess, know, while you're working, managing your education, obviously you have to help them as well with their education.

Hanan Nagi (13:03.386)
Yes, a little. honestly, that was a long time ago, my brother, like the next in line, was OK with his schooling as well. My youngest or our youngest brother eventually lived with my mother. So he was very young. So I wasn't as involved with him as I am now. Now we're very close, of us.

but we all have our families and kids, so it's very different.

Dylan Pathirana (13:36.302)
Yeah. And you, mentioned it was kind of the expectation at the time for, for the eldest daughter to kind of look after it and take over the family. What was your, your family's reaction when you decided you wanted to get out?

Hanan Nagi (13:52.626)
Well, that was tough because I never actually shared that with anybody at an early age. I think it was more of a hope and a dream rather than a plan. So when I graduated, I started applying for jobs outside Egypt. I just wanted an international experience because also as a girl, you don't leave your dad's house until you're married.

That's how it works. So I was not allowed to live alone or to so traveling alone was a big deal. So I was looking for a decent job for, think, three years online until I got an opportunity in Dubai. And then I thought, OK, I'm going to go there for one or two years. It's been 24 years now. yeah, and yeah, so I moved to Dubai alone at 24. I didn't know anyone.

Dylan Pathirana (14:40.13)
Ha ha ha.

Dylan Pathirana (14:47.31)
Wow.

Hanan Nagi (14:48.794)
And I just went to like, I had an admin job, but then I went into customer service, then little by little I moved into HR and from HR I went to training and development. But it was the real change was when I was 27. This is when I felt like I wanted to do more with my life. Like I had potential, but I didn't have a lot of self belief at the time.

that was unheard of, know, what do you mean by doing more? You know, like you have a job and you have a decent small car and you have a place to live. That's achievement. But I felt like I could do more. And this is when I by accident met a coach and that coach helped me change my life, challenge my self-belief, deal with tabuteurs.

go and focus on my career and change it completely, like to go from just a young administrator to a CEO, the Harvard grad, and the Ted speaker, and all of that. At the time, was, who are you talking about? That's not me. So yes.

Dylan Pathirana (16:05.006)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you're a young kid struggling, do you ever had a dream that this is what I wanted to become?

Hanan Nagi (16:15.526)
Yes, so I used to see, I used to get so mad for not understanding English. So mad, like I would watch, you know, Tom and Jerry, for example, as a kid or anything like that. And I would get so upset that I don't understand what they were saying. They didn't have the subtitle at the time. was only two channels and TV. So I would wait every weekend to watch something and then I don't understand. I always dreamt that I would be the successful person.

not a CEO and not a business woman. Like I didn't really have that big dream at the time. I just wanted to be able to travel and speak another language. Then eventually, when I think I was 12, 13, and they start asking you about your career and what you want to do. And at the time I wanted to do to be a doctor. That was the ultimate dream. But of course I couldn't because it needs a lot of money and time.

effort so I had to let the dream go. But I was used to say, okay, if not a doctor, then a businesswoman and I'm going to have this big car and the driver. so it was all about, you know, materialistic success. And again, there is nothing wrong with that. But I just didn't know what like I'm not a doctor, I'm a businesswoman to do what no idea.

Dylan Pathirana (17:26.189)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (17:35.8)
when you got to Dubai and you were kind of settling in, was there an element of homesickness or do you think you had grown up being so independent that you kind of felt already ready for that?

Hanan Nagi (17:47.984)
In the beginning, yes, because you move to a different country, you know nobody. you know, again, going through adversity and hardship teaches you to be resourceful, agile, and you just, you make things happen. And I think that what really, really helped me is being, again, a survivor makes you go like, okay, that sucks.

How can I change it? So, and I think that's what I did. So I started making friends and going to like to network. And it took me a year or two to feel comfortable. And now it feels home.

Dylan Pathirana (18:30.734)
And can you take us through that transition from, know, when you got that coach to starting what is now H &I?

Hanan Nagi (18:39.395)
that was interesting.

We started, I we worked together for a year and in the beginning it's all about challenging beliefs. And you think you know everything, know, you're 27, I know everything, of course. And then you get coached and you go like, oh, I'm not sure if this is really my belief or I just inherited it. And if I don't want to be just another good girl, who do I want to be?

Dylan Pathirana (18:55.34)
Hehehehe

Hanan Nagi (19:11.83)
That was to me, that was a big deal. Like I remember being warned to not continue or pursue education because who's going to marry you? That was very interesting, right? Yeah, you're going to be too much, too well educated for, you know, for grooms or suitors to be interested in you. So that challenges your perception and

your identity, like who do I want to be? I wasn't like for that throughout that year, I wasn't sure who do I really or who can I be? Who could I become? But luckily what happened is and I was a rubbish employee. my God, I was like, seriously, you would think that someone who had, you know, gone through

Dylan Pathirana (19:54.082)
Mm-hmm.

Hanan Nagi (20:08.742)
such hardship would be a good... I was rubbish. I was rubbish. I don't know when I got the sense of entitlement as a... that young that... this is the... I need to do the minimum. And I am doing them a favor by showing up and doing three, four hours of real work. And I should be a manager as soon as possible. I deserve...

Dylan Pathirana (20:10.903)
Yeah, hard working.

Dylan Pathirana (20:35.918)
Yeah

Hanan Nagi (20:37.412)
I have no idea where I got this from. But I think it was a whole generation. Everybody's complaining and somehow you get entangled in that mentality of entitlement. And then when I worked with the coach, I realized I was rubbish. And I do remember, this is a funny story. When I started changing, like could feel the transformation in the way I behave, in the way I dress.

Dylan Pathirana (20:39.214)
Old and like...

Dylan Pathirana (20:50.914)
Yes.

Hanan Nagi (21:06.81)
in the way I work. And I actually put on top of my screen at the time the first letters of I am here to work. So I-A-T-W. And I just put it there to remind myself that I'm not here to sip coffee all day long or to chat or to gossip about colleagues. It's not I'm here to work. And people would come.

and say, what does that mean? I'd never tell anyone, I just said, it's a secret. But in a few months time, I started really changing and I started focusing on the KPIs and I started creating good programs and induction and place. I was in HR at the time, HR training and development. And I remember the, and my relationship with my line manager at the time, he's a really nice guy, was rubbish, again.

He really, he could see through that, you know, the entitled employee who thinks she should be a manager tomorrow. But I remember at the end of, yeah, I remember going to the performance evaluation, properly dressed now, I dressed formally and I go on time or even earlier and I do my eight hours or longer and I leave on time. And I sat there and he said, so what do you think? How do you think you did?

Dylan Pathirana (22:12.11)
You

Hanan Nagi (22:31.932)
this year and I said not very well. I was very honest and I said, I think I started with this kind of attitude. I was not giving my best. I hope you have seen a change in me the past few months. I'm really trying my best now. But in terms of evaluation, I will leave it to you 100%, whatever you think is fair. He looked at me and said, okay, Hanan, I haven't decided on your ratings yet. You go home and we'll meet again tomorrow.

And I had a coaching session this that evening and I told my coach what happened. He smiled and said, no, he had written. He had the evaluation ready for you and he was bad. But because you were honest and because of how and because he had seen a real change, he will change it. So I went the next day. He felt like, man, OK, maybe she's really changing. That's not a stunt. Maybe I should give her a chance. And

Dylan Pathirana (23:09.614)
Yeah

Dylan Pathirana (23:21.164)
Yeah, he felt bad. Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (23:26.798)
Yeah,

Hanan Nagi (23:30.832)
And I went the next day and funnily enough, he said the same thing. He said, I had a really poor performance set for you, like the ratings, but I can see change and I want to encourage that change. And here is your new rating. And it was, you know, above average. was actually, from what I expected, it was good. And I said, thank you very much. Whatever you feel is fair. And I promise you next year, we'll do great. And that following year, I was so focused by the end of that year.

not only I made the biggest bonus that helped me to start investing in, like I'm now an investor and entrepreneur as well, that was my very first investment, but to also apply and win the Distinguished Employee of Dubai Award that I received from His Highness Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum personally as the first Egyptian to ever win this award in one year.

Dylan Pathirana (24:14.456)
Amazing.

Dylan Pathirana (24:22.497)
Wow.

Hanan Nagi (24:23.684)
And I think to answer your question, that was a confirmation to the change that I could do more, that I could be more, that I don't need to believe in what I was told, that if you come from this humble beginning, this is your ceiling. No, there's no ceiling. You make your own future, but you have to be also willing to pay the price. There is a price. always say, all my keynote speeches, everywhere I say there is a price.

you're willing to pay it, good. Just make sure you're actually pursuing the right thing because it feels so bad to pursue a dream and then at the end realize it wasn't really yours. It's something you've inherited or someone else's.

Dylan Pathirana (25:03.278)
So why did you decided to go to a coach in the first place?

Hanan Nagi (25:08.366)
It wasn't actually planned like I think, I don't know if you call it luck, you call it, know, heavenly intervention. Certain things happen. But there's also something I heard years ago that explained it to me. They say when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And I loved that. I loved that because I don't think I was ready until that, until that moment.

Dylan Pathirana (25:14.764)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (25:28.962)
Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (25:37.158)
because I was so busy trying to achieve, you know, again, tick, tick, tick on the list. But I wasn't deep down ready for a real change. And I remember that year, I think when I turned 27, I was not fulfilled. I wasn't happy and I didn't know why. And I tried therapy and I tried other things and there's no like, I'm seeing a therapist like most CEOs, there's nothing wrong with therapy at all. But I think I needed more.

And that was coaching for me. And by accident, I was talking to someone and I was explaining that I feel like I need to do something more. just don't know what it is. And I don't know how to know. And it just, I feel stuck. And he's like, you know what? I've got this, my uncle who's a great coach and he's coming from America. Maybe you could see him. I think he's relocating to Dubai. And we met once and he saw something in me and he's like, I'll.

I'll coach you." I was like, I can't afford you. I don't want money. I want to work with you. Yeah. And I owe him a lot of what I've achieved today is thanks to him. And he worked with me for a year. And he was tough. And he would call me up on any BS I'd say or anything I'd commit to and not pursue. He would call me out.

Dylan Pathirana (26:37.08)
Wow.

Dylan Pathirana (26:59.726)
So that's interesting. So what inspired you to start your own business?

Hanan Nagi (27:08.048)
again, accident, a lot, a lot of things. well, it wasn't. It was an opportunity that I seized. Let's put it that way. So I had always because I continued in the training and development career. This is what I found myself like, okay, still teaching transfer of knowledge. And I was in with the with the company.

Dylan Pathirana (27:10.158)
You

It's planned for you.

You

Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (27:35.166)
the semi-government organization that I was with for years and then I moved to an American company. was a regional HR manager. Then I went back to government. I was hit-hunted. So there were a few moves where I reached a head of learning and development in a big organization. But I felt like I had enough of corporate. I wanted to do more. I didn't know what.

So I became a coach myself, became a public speaker, I had my website, I started appearing on TV as a, again, a subject matter expert in personal transformation. I had my own TV show for a while in Arabic to inspire young people to transform their lives. I've, always felt like I'm a little constrained. And again, maybe it was a wrong belief. I'm going to have my own company when I'm in my forties, because this is the right time when you

are when you're a real expert, when you've had enough knowledge with you. And then I was on one, I was on NBC, I think, and after the interview, TV interview, I got a call from a company outside the U.E. It was in the middle of the financial crisis at the time, 2010. And someone said, so I see you're a coach. Do you deliver coaching training? I said, of course, no, to be honest.

I was a coach, but I didn't have the materials. And I said, of course, I can. And he's like, OK, we have a big project. It's a year long. But you have to come and do a demo for three days. And if it is successful, we will hire you as a business. There was no business. was just me. We'll hire you as a business to come and deliver. So I decided to resign.

Dylan Pathirana (28:58.862)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (29:18.734)
Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (29:25.98)
which was, yeah, everybody called me crazy because my company had fired 70 % of the workforce and kept me. So I should be super grateful, but I felt like, okay, this is an opportunity and there's a lot of risk. Yes. But if I don't do it now, what am I going to do? So I designed, spent two weeks at home writing the materials, preparing, cause it was in Arabic and I wasn't really comfortable delivering in Arabic and everything I learned, learned in English.

Dylan Pathirana (29:26.03)
Wow.

Dylan Pathirana (29:33.218)
Wuh.

Hanan Nagi (29:55.154)
So I did and I went and I delivered it. was successful. then they said, oh, fantastic. Now send us an invoice. I was like, you mean how? Oh, we need an invoice. An invoice need a company. And the company that read license, that read license needs a name and you need a logo. And bam, H &I was born. That was 15 years ago.

Dylan Pathirana (30:06.734)
You

Dylan Pathirana (30:17.1)
And I suppose, you know, once, once that at all happened, what was the, what was the vision for H &I?

Hanan Nagi (30:23.954)
Honestly, the first year I was in, it was like, I just have a contract and I have no idea what I'm going to do next. So I was like, did it, like, okay, I have a business 10 years earlier than I planned. Oh my God. And again, I was still even, we're all work in progress. Until now, I still of course work in my self belief, limiting beliefs, everything. And, but at the time,

Dylan Pathirana (30:26.734)
That's more.

Hanan Nagi (30:52.654)
I had a very limiting belief about my ability to sell. So as a company, very tiny, it is just me, was doing everything, everything, except I was so scared of sales. So I would hire very expensive people. give them all the money I make, you know, like all my profit to go sell. And six months after six months, nobody's able to sell. Then I was like, okay, I'm just going to do this. I'm going to try, know, what have I got to lose? I need.

other contracts, this contract is ending and I have nothing. So I started contacting companies on LinkedIn and saying, I'm in your city. This is my background. I am delivering this contract, this project to this big telecom. Can I come and have a cup of coffee? And funnily enough, everywhere I went, I would close first or second meeting. I think because I used to be the client and I understood the pain. So everything I said was not

a sales BS. was really like, know this is the challenge. I know this is what you need. And I gave all my clients a hundred percent money back guarantee, which was again crazy. So I was like, I'd come design the program, run it for you. If you don't like it at the end for any reason, don't pay me no questions asked. And they were like, yeah, sure. Yeah. And this is how it started. And now we are in four different countries, 120 people full time.

Dylan Pathirana (31:53.782)
Yes.

Dylan Pathirana (32:01.262)
Amazing.

Dylan Pathirana (32:11.502)
You

Dylan Pathirana (32:18.69)
Macy.

Amazing.

Hanan Nagi (32:21.682)
300 to 400 consultants.

Dylan Pathirana (32:25.538)
Wow. And you mentioned there that you knew the problem that you were trying to solve for your customers. What actually is the pain point you're trying to solve?

Hanan Nagi (32:36.178)
Treating others as children and even children don't like lectures. mean, ask yourself when was the last time you enjoyed a pure lecture? Like someone telling you what to do without engagement, without interaction, just standing there, just one way transfer of knowledge. So to me, as a client and as a head of L &D, we used to face this problem is to find

a good what we call vendor, even though I don't like that term, but like a training vendor who would be able to give me the latest content in a fun, gamified, interactive way, but also speak the language and understand the culture. And that's what H &I focused on. So I told them it's not about content. Content is there in books. It's online. Anybody can pick up.

a book and read about leadership, about emotional intelligence, about personal development. So what we wanted to do and what we are very proud to say that we're leading the market now when it comes to gamification. So when you come to one of our programs, you don't get a typical training course. We hate it. We don't do that. You get an experience. You get a simulation and exercise through virtual reality.

a game you play with your colleagues in class on tablets. Now we're working on immersive experience, so an leadership program, two to three days where there is no lecture at all. It's all kind of like a theme in Disneyland, where from the moment you enter to the moment you leave, you're in that different world where you learn by doing. When you learn by doing what happens and you learn in a fun way, what happens is you retain the knowledge for longer. So it moves from the short-term memory to the long-term memory.

Dylan Pathirana (34:16.622)
Amazing.

Hanan Nagi (34:31.514)
Why do we want it to stay there? Because hopefully we help you then to use the knowledge to help your organization, help yourself, help your family. We had a lot of people who attend, for example, our coaching program and then go coach their children. And they come back and say that was life transforming. So this is where that's the vision. It was for us to fill in that gap.

Dylan Pathirana (34:55.234)
Yeah. So Hanan, I want to go back a little bit when you started, right? So you said that you didn't really have a great vision, like you were just taking those opportunities and developing it. So when was that opportunity came when you are like single person for you to kind of grow and scale the business? I mean, obviously it's part of the kind of evolving that business, right?

Can you take us through like, know, from one person to two to now you're talking about hundreds of consultants and how that journey happened?

Hanan Nagi (35:36.498)
Well, I think the vision started forming naturally from my conversations with clients. Like when I actually sat there with them face to face, selling my services, I realized that this, what I was promising was really the gap. Like it wasn't just on paper that I'm, okay, we're gonna give you, no, no, no. They were really suffering from what I suffered from before. So.

When that happened, started focusing on, OK, this is not about another training program because anybody can go get a freelancer, get online materials and get a trade license on a training company. That's not how it works. And that's not what's sustainable. And from these conversations and working in partnership with my clients, I started forming or developing and growing the vision.

step by step. it went from, OK, I want to deliver an interactive training program to now H &I is known for its innovation hub. In fact, just the day before, received, I think it's the sixth or seventh award, the visionary of the year, in the e-business field. E is again, I never thought, know, ask me 10, 15 years ago, did I imagine or envision that we would be in the digital

Dylan Pathirana (36:53.155)
Yes.

Hanan Nagi (37:01.65)
No, of course not. Now we're playing with AI, VR, with AR. But to answer your question, it was just me. And then I got a personal assistant to work in the next bedroom in my home. Yeah, that was it. And then because I was doing everything, then I was also delivering. So I was designing, writing proposal, delivering.

Dylan Pathirana (37:17.997)
you

Dylan Pathirana (37:22.658)
Yeah, yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (37:28.312)
Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (37:31.19)
raising the invoices, everything. everything. So the first three years, of course, were very, very tough, but then I realized, okay, I can't keep working on and in the business. So I hired a couple of freelancers that I chose very carefully. Like I would do demos for like days to choose one or two trainers who understand, my

Dylan Pathirana (37:33.923)
and business development as well, selling and yeah, everything.

Hanan Nagi (37:57.286)
my methods, who have the same vision and the same approach to learning. Otherwise, they would ruin my reputation. So my focus was quality and reputation and money will come. And it did. It was just about maintaining that vision and turning it into and show my client that it was a reality. So we went from two people working from home to four or five people working from home, like in my home. Like they would come in, morning, and they're still in my.

Dylan Pathirana (38:21.934)
You

Hanan Nagi (38:25.126)
know, pajamas and we get cakes and tea and sit and yeah, yeah. And then until I had my, my child and I kind of like, sorry guys, I have to kick you out. And then I had a small office and then another office and a bigger office and now four offices.

Dylan Pathirana (38:42.67)
I want to go to that innovation piece because that's really interesting to me. how you guys have that to me, that seems like the way you're, differentiating yourself from others in the market. So I want to understand how you guys go about innovating in a space, which is kind of, you know, old school for, for, for most places.

Hanan Nagi (39:01.746)
So this happened actually thanks to COVID. I know everybody talks about COVID negatively. And trust me, don't remember how many nights where I went to sleep in tears because I didn't know that I was going to have a business the next day or not. Everything was shut down. We were instructed by the government not to do business. And you're just sitting there, have no idea when you're going to deliver again.

face to face particularly, you're paying employees salaries and I refuse to let people go. So we had to pivot very, very quickly. We had always talked about an innovation hub and maybe creating our own games to make, because we were always interactive, but using simple tools. Yeah. So again, discussions, maybe a board game here, but that was it.

Pivoting so quickly to online forced us to consider the digital tools available. And it wasn't just, I'll put them in a break room when it's warmer. No, we had to make it exciting because otherwise my client would cancel the contracts. mean, to even convince the client at the time, was one client who took a chance on me. We still work together today. was a big petrochemical in Saudi. And I said, I promise I will make the program, which was technical.

as fun as possible online as if they were face to face. So we spent two months during COVID looking at what tools, digital tools available out there that may be not in any way relevant to training or learning and development or education, even if it's for children, if it's for, if it's technical and how do we recycle it or to use it in a different way to aid

our vision of it's interactive, it is fun, it's engaging. And same year, I think, or the following year, I established the Innovation Hub. This is a full-time, big team. Their main job is to find tools, gamify materials, create virtual reality simulations, create augmented reality tools and games, create immersive

Hanan Nagi (41:25.7)
experiences now, both face to face and digitally. And that's what gave us the push. That's now our edge.

Dylan Pathirana (41:34.264)
That's awesome. Hanan, you know, like that's really interesting, you know, but when you think of, think back, you know, that struggle that you talked about early when you were young and ability to survive through that struggle, do you think as an entrepreneur really help you?

Hanan Nagi (41:55.602)
Of course, of course, because I think having gone through what I went through gave me the sense of risk assessment. Like I'm so tuned to risk, I think more than most people. Like I can sniff risk from miles away. So even my team, they, when we have a big deal or a big contract, go like,

Dylan Pathirana (42:16.974)
You

Hanan Nagi (42:25.358)
and they don't ask me for my technical opinion. They go like, find the holes, find the risk. Seriously, was like, bring Lassie to find drugs. And I think that helped me a lot in detecting and mitigating risk early on in every intervention. And also,

I believe it helped me as a leader in terms of sense of empathy. Because you go either way, you go to either extreme, either too empathetic or too rough. And he said, I had it hard. So why are you complaining? I would like to think with the help of my coach and working on myself for so many years, I am able to balance this a little bit. So how to balance business needs with

people needs and to have people who have been with us for 12, 13, 14 years in the company. yeah, and to have so many people come and say, I've never stayed in a company for more than two years. I've been angrily like they actually, why am I still staying with you? And to me, the best, best compliment I've ever had is like, when you work with Hanan, it is difficult for you to work with someone else. That to me is

Dylan Pathirana (43:30.766)
amazing.

Dylan Pathirana (43:39.116)
You

Hanan Nagi (43:50.128)
And I believe all of this is because of what I had gone through as a child, let alone, course, resilience and the grit and all of that stuff where you don't let go. I was, again, I'll take it as a compliment. was called like a dog with a bone. I don't let things go. if there is something I want, there is the tenacity I'm going to do. It doesn't matter. But now, again, at this stage of life, I go like, OK.

That worked, but now we just want to make sure it is the right thing. Not every bone needs to be picked and not every fight should be fought. also, let's make sure it's yours. You really want to do it because you want to do it, not because you're too competitive. And most entrepreneurs are competitive. And that it really adds value to you, to those around you. Fulfilling.

Dylan Pathirana (44:45.134)
And I suppose after, you know, all of these years of learning about and teaching about leadership, are there any core insights that you can share with us about becoming a better leader?

Hanan Nagi (44:58.49)
Hanan Nagi (45:02.418)
I can't recall one call in particular, but I can tell you what I've learned about being a good leader, that treat people as you wish to be treated. Honestly, it's very simple. And if you do that, problems wouldn't exist. And people feel it when you are authentic and they feel it when you are vulnerable.

like during COVID and I go and say, here is what's happening. I am scared, but this is my plan and I need your support. I never pretended to be no way tall or the ship is sailing and don't work. No, no, no. And I think on a very, on a deep level, people appreciate that way more than big words and they want to know they can rely on you. They want to know that

You're a good human being and as well as a good leader. So they trust you. And even when we lose people now, because they want to change jobs, they want to go somewhere else for whatever reason. You could see how upset they are to leave. And I appreciate that. But again, this is life. But to see them set to go, to me, that's again, a of success that they felt.

cherished and valued as humans, not just as a hit count in my company.

Dylan Pathirana (46:38.518)
And on that point, you know, about people, I suppose as you've scaled your company and got more and more people in, how have you kept that company culture so strong that even as a large organization, people still feel that connection, especially to you.

Hanan Nagi (46:54.946)
It is so difficult. It is so difficult because, mean, Jam, you remember about the moment of truth and when a company is growing and people start resisting the change. And so we are going now through a professionalization phase where we've now established a good HR department, the procurement, the contracts, legal, IT, so the past few years, I unfortunately had people who did not accept.

Dylan Pathirana (47:11.758)
Mm-hmm.

Hanan Nagi (47:24.434)
the transition and didn't feel that this was the company they joined and it was their choice to not continue. And I understood, I understood what was going on. They did as well and were still in very good terms and were friends. But as the company grew and new blood came in, you can't really maintain that grip on culture, that it's friendly, that it's open, that you can't.

Dylan Pathirana (47:25.324)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hanan Nagi (47:54.32)
I don't know half of employees' names anymore. I used to know everybody by name and their families. And now I go like, hi, I'm Hanan. What do you do for us? And so the only solution I have found is to work so closely with the management team to make sure they become better than Hanan in terms of people management, that they can carry out the same values that they can.

Dylan Pathirana (47:58.851)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (48:04.258)
Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (48:23.954)
treat people the same way I hoped for my people to be treated regardless of their levels. And that's my focus now. I hope I am doing a good job, but it's always work in progress because even managers, you get new managers every month or so. So we're working on a very strong onboarding program, value system training, competencies.

the whole nine yards, what we teach people to do, we started doing it. We started doing it now internally.

Dylan Pathirana (48:52.206)
Yeah

Dylan Pathirana (48:56.238)
And you mentioned a little bit early on about kind of the struggles that you had, I suppose the influence that people were having on you, you know, saying that you shouldn't get too educated. know, people won't find you attractive, whatever. I want to understand what are the challenges you faced being a woman in business? And also, do you see that landscape changing, especially in the Middle East? Like, I'm not sure what it's like being from Australia.

Hanan Nagi (49:20.754)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it has definitely changed, has definitely. I mean, we're 25 years ago, 20, 25 years ago, and I was told that. But of course, for a female to reach this position, it's not easy, not just because of the system or the society is not allowing her, it's because of our natural responsibilities as mothers as well.

You know, those who chose to also have a family, I can tell you it is not easy because of the sense of guilt that I had to go a few days ago to Saudi for two hours and come back in the evening to attend my son's swimming gala in the morning. But when he said, mommy, I said, it's very difficult, baby, to come back the same day. He said, what if I win? And you're not there.

So I changed my flight, came back and he won all three races. And I would have hated myself if I weren't there. So to juggle that is difficult. And I don't know why, you know, we don't admit it. is difficult. But yes, of course, at the time was there were not a lot of opportunities. Maybe I was lucky being in Dubai.

Dylan Pathirana (50:19.214)
you

Dylan Pathirana (50:24.366)
Amazing

Dylan Pathirana (50:28.533)
Absolutely.

Hanan Nagi (50:47.41)
because they had the system to support individuals who have the vision and the tenacity, regardless of gender and again, regardless of religion, regardless of anything. And that was, I think, the space I needed to flourish. But yes, I mean, I was always called crazy. Oh my gosh, I'm known for it. I was called crazy when I left Egypt to come here. I was called crazy when I started the business.

I resigned in the middle of financial crisis 2015 when the oil prices dropped again, we were losing money. You have to close it, go back. And my saboteurs do a great job of calling me crazy. mean, they did for so long. And until recently, when I got to speak at Harvard, the the Delivered TED Talk at Harvard, again, people were like, this is, if you don't do well, you're going to hurt the business.

Dylan Pathirana (51:44.916)
Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (51:46.748)
You don't understand everywhere you speak. It's either helpful, are you sure you want to do this? And I would like to think it was very successful. So it's okay to be called crazy. It's fun.

Dylan Pathirana (52:00.61)
Yeah. So, I mean, this is where I really want to go and understand bit more. Talking about flourishing and I like what you mentioned earlier as well. You are in the stage of rather than you're in the business, you're on the business developing leaders to drive the growth of your business. And your role has changed over the years, right? And now everywhere I can see, I can see Hannon, like, you know, social media, media.

and Harvard Square doing the TEDx. Tell us a bit more about how that role changed and I want to know a little bit more about your topic that you discussed at the Harvard Square and take us through please.

Hanan Nagi (52:44.08)
OK. So it started actually changing a little bit because of our OPM, When we went to Harvard and we were supposed to not be available for three weeks, I mean, you can imagine there was a panic going on. Like, what do you mean you're not available? Of course, I was still available and I was taking calls. But that kind of forced my team to start taking decisions without me.

Dylan Pathirana (52:50.979)
Yep. Yep.

Dylan Pathirana (52:59.734)
Yep.

Hanan Nagi (53:13.402)
And I think part of me wanted to be still involved. And don't get me wrong, sometimes I get all the way down when the business needs to. I was just attending a handover meeting. See, we should not attend handover meeting, but I knew it was critical for my business. So I said, I'm attending. But I also had to face myself and say, I need to let go. And it's difficult for it because it's my baby. My baby.

Dylan Pathirana (53:39.596)
You very...

Hanan Nagi (53:41.958)
Whatever, whatever, whatever. And then I thought, if this is to grow, I have to take a backseat and the management team have to make mistakes the usual, yeah? I had to. And so the second year at Harvard, the three weeks, I had a few calls. And this last year when we graduated, I barely got any. And to me, that was a sign of success. Sometimes you go like, my babies don't need me anymore. And you go like, it's a good sign. It's a good sign.

Dylan Pathirana (54:07.31)
Baby is grown up. Yeah.

Hanan Nagi (54:11.93)
So I am still involved, but I try to not be involved transactionally or in day to day as much as possible. Sometimes I am, a lot of times I am, but only when I am really needed, not because I don't trust them or because I know better or no. I try and focus now on the strategic direction of the company, the innovation part, positioning H &I where

it deserves to be as leading in the corporate learning industry, building relationships, collaboration. I don't believe in competition. I think it's very limiting. So I go and meet other big consulting firms and we work together now and we run country wide projects, ministries and big players in the energy field. So that's what I try to focus on.

while definitely building my management team to take over. What if I get hit by a bus tomorrow? What's going to happen to this company? It should be able to run without me. So I know we still have a lot of work to do, but that's my focus.

Dylan Pathirana (55:18.35)
Mm-hmm.

Dylan Pathirana (55:28.462)
Take us through your TEDx experience. Please.

Hanan Nagi (55:32.658)
I am going to share with you the title and then look at your faces first. So my talk was or the title was Why Self-Belief is Overrated.

Dylan Pathirana (55:38.595)
Okay.

Dylan Pathirana (55:45.942)
okay. Okay.

Hanan Nagi (55:46.937)
Exactly!

Yeah. And I think the talk should be ready soon within the next couple of weeks. It's getting reviewed. Yes. Yes. So in a nutshell, in a nutshell, I developed this blueprint five steps model based on my own experience and a lot of research as well that I don't personally believe that you should wait until you have self-belief to achieve something great.

Dylan Pathirana (55:55.822)
So much looking forward to listen to it. Yeah. Wow.

Hanan Nagi (56:20.344)
I don't think it works. think it's paradoxical. I don't think it's logical. think just screaming, I can do it in front of a mirror. I don't think it really achieves as much as we could get from making friends with our saboteurs, accepting self-doubt as a friend and learning to deal with it throughout the journey. And that's why...

my blueprint talks about and hopefully it's going to be a book soon as well.

Dylan Pathirana (56:54.048)
Awesome. Well, we'll definitely put the link to the talk in the show notes once it comes out. But I'm curious, you've mentioned that, you know, success can test one's ego and humility is the key to true influence. So I want to know, you know, after all of this that you've created, how do you still stay grounded?

Hanan Nagi (57:07.995)
Absolutely.

Hanan Nagi (57:18.418)
Because it can be, it can get taken away from you in a second. You don't know what can happen. mean, like, it is so naive of people to feel superior or blah, blah. It's naive because, yeah, it took a lot of work for you to get there. But me, for example, without my team,

could never be a success, never. It doesn't matter what I could do. I'm still one person. I could have a vision. I could have resources. I could have tools, but I can't do it on my own. So to think you are it to me is naive. That's number one. Number two is like I said, people feel and can sense on an energetic level, whether you're truthful or not, whether you're authentic or not.

whether you are humble or not. So the day I let my ego controls me, I know those around me will feel it. And then their loyalty and their, mean, they love the company as if it's their own. What else would I ever want more than that? So I'd be stupid if I were to treat people or even believe that, now I'm not. No, life is simple.

Dylan Pathirana (58:26.35)
Mm-hmm.

Hanan Nagi (58:44.612)
And we're all playing our own roles. And I am hopefully a reason for someone else's growth, like there was someone who took from his time to coach me and help me be the person I am. So I think true leadership is in humility and in vulnerability and in authenticity, honestly, not just big words to say. And those around you, especially in professional services and people's business, they feel it. Your clients feel it.

your team feel and it can either help you grow or ruins you completely.

Dylan Pathirana (59:22.52)
That's, I really like that. So Hanan, what legacy do you hope to leave as a entrepreneur, leader, coach? Mother. Mother, yeah.

Hanan Nagi (59:34.403)
wow.

I always say that we need to leave the world a better place than we found it. I hope, I hope that in whatever we're offering at HNI or me as a business leader or as a mother, that I'm people and organizations and my son and my siblings and my friend to...

one day look back and say, I am better today because of Hannah. Hannah did something that helped me. I don't know if I have like a huge legacy of, I don't know, making a billion people this or that. Maybe I will eventually. But now, even with the TED Talk, my hope was that this video, if

Dylan Pathirana (01:00:18.286)
Mm-hmm.

Dylan Pathirana (01:00:22.584)
You

Hanan Nagi (01:00:30.838)
if it's good and if it really adds value that someone would be sitting there or watching the video who is like me 25 years or 30 years ago who doesn't know what they're supposed to do and struggling with self-doubt and not sure if I can ever achieve anything and they find that helpful and to guide them towards a better life and what they were hoping or dreaming of.

Dylan Pathirana (01:00:59.342)
And Hannah, looking back on this incredible journey that we've spoken about, do you feel successful given that your definition of success was all about fulfillment?

Hanan Nagi (01:01:10.052)
Absolutely. Like, now understand that perfection is an illusion because of my perfectionist scores. And it took me years to understand that if I keep looking at what's looking at and focusing on what's missing, I will live and die miserable. So I now count my blessings and I understand that

Dylan Pathirana (01:01:20.342)
you

Hanan Nagi (01:01:37.714)
Of course, my life is not perfect. My achievements are not like everything that I wanted, but where I am now and what I have achieved is success. And that daily routine of who do I want to be today was a day worth living. To me, it reminds me that, okay, this is success and I have a lot to be thankful for. And I always say, I always ask myself if I know I'm dying today.

This is my last day on earth. But I look back and say, this was a good life. Good, successful, whatever you want to call it, positive. Yeah. And I go like, yeah, yeah, it was. It was a good run. And I actually have it in my notebook. Like I keep looking at my notebook and say, not just a good run, make it a heck of a run. So I'm trying.

Dylan Pathirana (01:02:31.566)
I love that. Amazing. you know, this conversation we could keep going on and on and on. It's been incredible. You're a very eloquent speaker and you know, you've gotten across some very philosophical and deep points and I'm really grateful that we got to have this conversation. But before we let you go, I've been jotting down a few key ingredients, which I think have been so critical to your successful life. And I'd like to share them with you. The first one is definitely humility.

Hanan Nagi (01:02:36.496)
Yeah.

Dylan Pathirana (01:03:00.376)
And what I mean by that is knowing that you don't always have the answers, you know, there was a point in your life where you, you were, you were a bit lost, but you could have had that big head and said, and I'll figure it out, keep going. But you accepted that I don't actually know what I'm doing. And you sought help and you know, that coach came into your life and then the rest is history. But I think having that humility is so important because, you know, as you said, now it's one of the core things that, keeps you grounded. And I think that's really important.

trait to have. The next is being a continuous learner. I think that's one thing which really stood out to me, whether it's from a small Hanan wanting to go out and learn English so that she could get more opportunities to now going to Harvard and always trying to push the boundary, learn more so that you can be the best version of yourself. And I think you even mentioned, you want to be the best version of yourself so that you can impart that onto other people.

The next one is you take opportunities. And I suppose what really stood out to me is you don't listen to other people. The naysayers, the people who are always trying to tear you down, whether it's, you know, been family in the past or your competitors now, you're always looking at opportunities for yourself. And I think that's really important, you know, just going in and taking the leap.

and not really worrying about what other people have to say because it's making sure that you get to the outcome that you want. And you mentioned that as well. Is it someone else's dream or is it your own dream? So think that's important. And the last one is you're incredibly resilient. You you face some incredible challenges, which most people can't even comprehend throughout your life. But you've come out the other side, kicking in and, you know, working towards that heck of a life that you're working towards.

And Henan, thank you so much for sharing your story and being really vulnerable. mean, that's a great leadership that I can see from you and really authentic as well. I feel like we both had the opportunity to really know you really well. And hopefully we share this with everybody else. And we learned so much having this conversation. And thanks for being with us. Yeah, and really enjoy it.

Hanan Nagi (01:05:20.476)
Thanks.

Hanan Nagi (01:05:26.886)
Thank you, thank you very much. Thank you both for having me and yeah, looking forward to our next podcast.

Dylan Pathirana (01:05:33.689)
That's it. And for those of you who have joined, if you've taken something out of today's episode, it would be a massive favor. If you could subscribe, like, and comment on this episode, it helps us get it out there. And if you want to see more of our inspiring content, you can do so by heading over to our website, the quest for success podcast.com. And with that, we'll catch you guys in the next episode. Thanks for listening. And thank you so much. It was really wonderful. Yeah. Like it was very flawless, right? We could talk.

Hanan Nagi (01:05:58.502)
You're welcome.